This one starts out a little slow. But tough it out for a few minutes. Wait till you hear the segment from the radio call in show. Clearly Islam in Australia is also the extreme, rare, exceptional form of Islam like it is everywhere else in the world.
I try to do good, and something about this woman bothers me, she seems to be too well educated to be spouting the BS she is, I don’t know what it is but something about her rings false. My feelings could be wrong but they could be right.
Richard, compare her first post I think it was on another post, to this last one. Im reasonably confident we are not speaking to the same ‘Syeda’ now as originally. The first one would never have been comfortable enough with English idioms to use terms like ‘high five’ etc.
*sighs* @Richard. Can you accept that i am a human being? That i have no ill intentions towards you or anyone else on this site. The reason i am trying to talk with you and others is because it bothers me that you hold something that I cherish and uphold ,falsely in extremely negative light. yes, i believe falsely. it bothers me that you people donot know islam as i do. I dont know where you derived the meanings that you did about islam .but pepole like me have no voilent intentions towards those who misunderstand me. although i try to just get in touch with them so that may be any one person can see what i am saying. it is my attempt to make a difference.Lets just say that even if we disagree , we can respect each other as human beings. As off springs of Adam. As human beings ,as australians,which ever way. if for a second you could imagine yourself in a world where everyone seemed to paint you in a certain light, which just wasnt you. you would understand the feeling hopelessness. However, it is my nature not to give in. Hence ,i am trying to talk with you. As for your bit why dont i try and stop people who are voilent, what do you suggest i do? I dont know any people around me who have voilent tendencies. I dont think launching a site where you make no distinction between an average muslim and a voilent muslim does any good. This causes alienation. I know it is easier to dismiss people on net, and dismess what they are saying as farce but i dont know if i have ever tried to speak more honestly in my life. I have no issue with the jsut war concept in judaism or christianity. i dont know much about them. all i am saying is that there nothing wrong in the jsut war concept endorsed in islam. reading Quran like any other book is a mistake. and i have said this before many muslim make this mistake too. you need to learn the background,the context ,the relevance of that book in today’s world. you need to learn it from a good and proper source. many non muslim pull out a book of hadith and quran and think they know it. many muslims do it too. and that is what is “wrong”.that is why some muslims drive themselves to voilence. i dont know anyother civil way to get across what i am saying. here is to hoping that may be anyone will atleast attempt to read this message without thinking i have ulterior motives.
@Richard “When Jews and Christians immigrate to a new nation the work hard to learn the culture of the new nation and fit in, when Moslems immigrate to a new nation they work hard to make their new home change to have only their culture. Those are the reasons people don’t like what the Moslems are doing, those are the reasons no one believes what you are saying, we don’t want to become Moslem and you don’t want to live in a nation where the Moslems aren’t supreme. Why don’t you work hard to adapt to our culture and actively oppose the people who are doing the violence in the name of Islam? If you do that we will decide that not all Moslems are bad, until then all you are doing is ensuring that no one trusts you.”
Richard that is a historically inaccurate claim. Please look at the history and tell me what good has Israel done to get itself accepted? If declaring war on native and driving them is the way to adopt a culture ,than pardon me.
About christians, there are too sides to christians. however for you to make a ssweeping statement like that is quite weird. are we not aware of the history of australia? what did christians do? please educate me what have australian muslims done in comparison to above two instances. and let me know which method would you like us to adopt from both nations. that of ethnic cleansing?or stolen generation? or massacres?
Historically what has Islam done for the world except rape and plunder.?
You are comparing a country with an ideology
Arab/Islamic Nobel Prize Winners
From a pool of 1.4 BILLION Muslims which are 20% of the world’s population (2 out of every 10 people)
Literature
1988 – Najib Mahfooz
Peace
1978 – Anwar El-Sadat
1994 – Yasser Arafat *
2003 – Shirin Ebadi
Chemistry
1999 – Ahmed Zewail
Physics
Abdus Salam
Not an impressive result..on the other hand
Jewish Nobel Prize Winners
From a pool of 12 million Jews which are 0.2% of the World’s Population (2 out of every 1,000 people)
Too many to list…but
After reviewing this list, can you supply a reason for the large discrepancy between the Arab/Islamic population’s contribution to the world body and that of the Jew? There are 165 Jews listed as opposed to 6 from the Arab side.
http://www.jewishmag.com/99mag/nobel/nobel.htm
Syeda
http://www.australianislamistmonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3980:this-is-war&catid=297:videos
Watch the video and read the comments
Shirl without going into an argument of who is more “productive” .Dont you feel something inhumane about this argument? I mean here you are first criticising islam for having supremist agenda and than saying that because muslims haven’t done anything “significant” therefore they deserved to be wiped out? or targeted? or they become lesser human beings?
As for what have they have given this world other than rape and plunder. Please bear with me ,war has been gifted to the world at the hands Hitler,Stalin,Maximilien Robespierre,Vlad ?epe?, imperialism,colonialism. If you read the history again you will see rape and murder have been brought to this world by many hands that werent muslim. if the notion is to target those who wreck havoc many western nations will fall into the category. as the recent history is evident proof that wars of larger scales have been mainly fought to preserve western interests , WW1,WW11. But you obviously are a believe of Thucydides’s “strong do what they can while the weak suffer what they must”. I will be the first one to admit that muslim world is in a “Weak” condition. Thus, you confirm what i have been been thinking ;the misunderstandings about muslims are propogated from certain quarters that “want” these misunderstanding to circulate. Not because they are mistaken.they say when there is crime follow the money. who stands to gain by having these wars? its certainly not the muslims. For if the war is brought out by the necessity of defence,there is a concept of proportional response. that we haven’t witnessed so far in this so called “war against terror”.
As for muslims contribution to the world . Here you read the rest here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
Although i find this to be a futile exercise in the context of discussion about demonosizing islam. But i quote
“”The achievements of the Arabic speaking peoples between the ninth and twelfth centuries are so great as to baffle our understanding. The decadence of Islam and of Arabic is almost as puzzling in its speed and completeness as their phenomenal rise. Scholars will forever try to explain it as they try to explain the decadence and fall of Rome. Such questions are exceedingly complex and it is impossible to answer them in a simple way.”
— George Sarton , The Incubation of Western Culture in the Middle East”
It seems you are not talking like a Muslim at all now. You seem to be talking like some multi-culteral liberal type. You dismiss the issues around the koran and the questions posed in relation to the Koran as rubbbish and leave it at that. How are we to take you seriously as a muslim when you can not even deal with a few questions? Just dismissing things as rubbish is not doing your credibility any good. It is possible you may not even be a muslim. You may in fact be a Jew hating liberal mult-culteralist posing as a muslim.
“that is again a pile of rubbish. Allah allowed one manuscripts variation? Well this is one of the most bizarre and banal accussations i have heard. When the Quran is said to be the miracle for it being unchanged then it doesnt mean that no publisher is going to make a mistake printing it. It means the there will always be Quran in existence that is verbatim from the Prophet’s time. It can be memorised by people as it is.” Where is that Koran. Is it the Sunni Koran which is different from the Shia Koran?Who has memorised this pristine Koran. Is it the Uthman Koran you are talking about. Or is it the Korans Uthman burnt. To guard against errors from publishers is their a chain of reciters going back to the time of the prophet who are reciting verbatim that pristine unchanged Koran. Which Koran do you yourself use and what if it has numerous errors from publisher over the centuries. How do you know. What about the goat. What happended to that verse that it ate. What about the missing bits of the Koran talked about in the Hadiths. So many questions. But nothing from your side except “rubbish.” Since you have already shown your incapacity to answer questions I have just reposted them again with a few others but I know you can not answer any. You are not a muslim with the expertise to deal with tough questions or you may in fact be a liberal leftie type against the Capitalist West.
Muslims tend to end up at the bottom of any society they occupy even if they are in the majority. In Malaysia all the Billionaires are Chinese or Indian. They are the minority. And yet they own the economy. In the UK it is more complex but Jews are right up their at the top and the muslims are at the bottom. In fact Allah has reserved three of the bottom slots in the economic data in the UK for different muslim groups from Somalia, Bangladesh and Pakistan. Muslims are all talk whether it is noble prizes, synchronised swimming, tennis, Businssess billioanires, home ownership, patent registrations, building nuclear reactors ( built for them by kuffar) or building buildings for them in Dubai (again by kuffar), Muslims go nowehere in the real world of today as they are all at the bottom. That is why the golden age is always in the past or in the future when they will take over the world, but in the real world of now they are complete failures.
Syeda
You sound like a totally different person to the first person by that name here !!
The golden age of islam has long gone. The current trend of islam is to abuse, condemn and kill.
I have no ill intentions towards you as a person, however I have huge issues with the person you revere. If you read about his life, he was a murderer, a paedophile, a wife abuser and a rapist.
I give you he started out with good intentions, but somewhere along the way he was corrupted “””BIG TIME “”
Talking about golden ages is a tactic much loved by Arabs, Blacks, and Iranians. The Arabs talk about Islam. Blacks talk about how they built the pyramids which is complete nonesense and Iranians just latch on to anything anyone ever did and claim it for their own. Golden Age talkers are usually failures in the modern world. So they put out all kinds of historical lies and fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people. However, the nub of the issue is how are all these genius golden agers doing now. Blacks are certainly doing well in certain fields but not all, however, Muslims are complete failures in the modern world. Even to get their oil out they rely on foreign expertise from the West. To build a sky high building like they do in Dubai means a phone call to Samsung of South Korea which built the tallest building in the world for them. Muslims are number one in one thing and that is terrorism. This is how they do it: golden age talking to thier audiences while a suicide bomber is preparing to blow them all up for Allah. And lets not forget the Golden Age when Islam will take over the world. That is going to be the biggest suicide bomb of all.
Your laugh for the day. Syeda speaks of “Proportional response”. This is the utterly laughable notion that a people or a nation acting in self defence against a hostile force that intends to obliterate those people from the Earth, for some reason must limit the force of their defence to the extent the attacker deems is the same as the force used by them. This is laughable for two reasons.
1. If you attack someone whatever it is they do to stop you is fair game. Don’t want payback? Don’t attack.
2. The person or people getting said payback will never ever feel the force being used against them is equal to or lesser than the force they employed in the initial attack. Israel made hundreds of thousands of phone calls warning people in Gaza about impending strikes on buildings thought to hold weapons and Hamas terrorists, days in advance. Then the Israelis changed it to a couple of hours in advance. Know why? Cause Hamas would cover the roofs of the buildings named with women and children to stop the Israeli strike. They did this because they know that Israel values life, even their enemies lives more than the strategic value of the target.
However if Israel were to place many Jewish women and children on a target hamas wanted to strike, the Muslims would ‘eueulate’ and pass out candy for the additional kills they got and we know this is true because it happens every time a Muslim attacker kills a number of Jews.
Thanks Eeyore glad someone else noticed it also.
Syeda after the Arabs conquered Palestine after about 100 years most of them moved out and left it to the Jews, they remained the majority until about 1900 when the Jews in Europe started moving back in to their ancestral lands. At that time the Arabs started moving in to Palestine in droves to stop the Jews from reclaiming their ancestral home land and to find world on the land the Jews bought. It is the Arabs that are the intruders, not the Jews. As for what you have done in Australia you have worked hard to drive the Australians out of towns and off beaches they have enjoyed for well over a Century, and you have done this in the name of Islam.
Syeda according to the latest historical research the things that the Arabs were credited with (algebra, Arabic numerals etc. were actually created in India and the Arabs got credit for them because the Europeans found out about them from the Arabs.
Not only have muslims declared a racial jihad against white ozzies they have declared war on indian students. Even here in the other side of the world news travels about what goes in that part of the world and we are aware of how the White Ozzies are attacked and how students from India are attacked by gangs of Jihad Muslims drunk on Islam in the fine country of Australia. Muslims even attack police stations. One good about globalisation is just how much we know about what goes on. So even though the other posters from Australia know much more of the details I have a general idea of how the Jihad in Australia is progressing. No amount of false golden age propagand is going to stop us from seeing with our eyes what we see on a daily basis of the Jihad against our people happening right now and every day. Do you think you should apologise to one billion white christians for the Jihad in Australia. Do you think you should apologise to one billion indian hindus for your jihad against them in Australia. Two billion people have had war declared on them by the Muslims. Two billion Indian hindus, and white christian people are offended and await your apology Mr Rape Sheik Taj El-Din Hilaly.
The best source on Algebra and math and history that I have read on this matter, is Fjordman’s excellent and scholarly essay entitled, Islam, The Greeks, and the Scientific revolution which is in three parts, part 1 being here:
http://www.globalpolitician.com/23559-multiculturalism
As I recall the essay, Europeans learned of the zero and other advanced maths from Hindu’s in India, but had to bring that information home to Europe through a long and exceedingly dangerous journey through the Muslim middle east. People call these skills by Arabic names because of an accident of geography. That after the long journey, things had become ‘arabized.’
Best to read the essays though, they are an excellent and riveting read.
This is what Islam is all about
http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/letters/please-help-kacem-el-ghazzaly/
Please Help Kacem El Ghazzali
Please sign the petition folks after reading Kacem’s story ..
Hi Ali,
Kacem is a Moroccan blogger, theatrical performer, author and high school student. He is interested in issues related to human rights, and what he calls non-religious minorities and the capricious weather. He is founder and executive member of the Association of Moroccan Bloggers.
Recently he was victim of a death threat by a Muslim after he was on television to discuss his atheism. You can hear that here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQXg4tibOVU
Anyway, the update is that Kacem is now being sought out by the Moroccan government. The government said that he has exceeded his freedom of expression rights because of what he’s said about Muslims and Islam. They said skepticism was unacceptable. He’s been physically and verbally abused by his colleagues in school, he’s now been removed from school. And chances are the government are going to give him severe punishment from prison to maybe worse. The petition is below.
Could you help to get the word across?
Petition:
Asylum in a secular country for Kacem El Ghazzali
http://www.gopetition.com/petition/40189.html
Death threats by phone
Just one quick thought. @Syeda.
As a woman, you’re okay with your dad being able to beat your mother if he feels like it, right? Or your brother being able to slap you for doing something haram?
That is, after all, in the quran (Sura and verse 4.34), and I have never found anything to say that it’s been superceded by later teachings or writings.
I have a major issue with this idea, as it stands against everything that I grew up with here in Australia.
Thank you I will read them.
@conq
1)i dont sound like a muslim because i donot seem to engage with you in a debate to “prove” islam divine? well there is a thing islam teaches when you come across someone who rejects. leave them be,no compulsion in religion. I dont have a problem with you not believing in islam. I have an issue with you ramming your notions about how muslims take their religion.Also because you seem to have trouble understanding what i am saying. You are still stuck in which Quran , so why waste words with you?
b)there is research being conducted on Quran by various non muslim universities .i am afraid they reached quite a different conclusion than you did. What is the evidence of shia Quran being different Quran than sunni? where is your proof?You have in terms of evidence only provided ONE manuscript onto which a “non muslim” scholar declared an error in writing. You cannot seem to wrap your head around that.You are right though i am not a scholar of my religion. I am believer,its simple for me. What you cannot seem to understand is that not every practising muslim is out their to shove his belief onto non muslims. You dont want to believe Quran is unchanged, fine dont.Doesnt bother me.I learn this from my religion rather than western leftist politics.
2)Muslims ending up at the bottom. Then again this is your standarads of elusive society.Which i cant quite grasp whether it being rich or poor,or being criminal or pacifist, or being liberal or religious. I cant argue your personal believes .They are just yous believes about the norms adn standards of scoiety without any evidence to back it up. If i were to concur that muslims are at the bottom, does it than give you the right to consider them “Evil” or lesser human being?
3)Golden age is in your opinion a hallucination. It was indians or someothers that had empires till 12th century. Once again,your knowledge strikes me as “personal”. There are many non muslim historian (and the one that i quoted wasnt a muslim either) who research this golden age. i have already quoted the links. You can read up on the resources offered.
@Shirl
“The golden age of islam has long gone. The current trend of islam is to abuse, condemn and kill.”
Well can i tell you something. If the problem existed with the school of thought professed by islam than the golden should mirror those problems rather than current age.For it was closer to Prophet(pbuh) time than today is. The fact that muslims have had remarkable success(in worldy standarads) when they were infact practising their religion far more copiously from the time of prophet only proves that the religion itself has no problems.
About your comments regarding my Prophet (peace be upon him). Well my religion tells me something, that is not to cast stones at others and their holy figures. The reason i am not going to go into Prophet’s seerah with you is because so far i have only shown regard for other religious figures and that hasnt stopped you from labelling my Prophet (pbuh)in most despicable terms. This strikes at the heart of any muslim. My only suggestion to you is to read up more on him and if this is your belief of him after doing an honest research than i donot wish to engage in any other debate with you. You are entitled to your belief and i am to mine. Such is the love for Him in our hearts that we donot wish to hear blasphemy.If you can understand love you will understand loyalty. I am willing to talk if you can keep your manners,if not than my apologies. And in any case throwing slanderous remarks doesnt add to any discussion.
As for me sounding a different person , i am afraid if all of you were to mingle with muslims you would find greater variations than you concieve.
@conq , please quote any news where gang of jihadi muslisms attacked indiand students. I certainly donot recall any such news. it would be news for me.
@Richard.
Allan Pappe, from israel would provide you with documents to tell you about the history of current state of israel. This concept that there were no people in palestianbefore jews landed or terra nullius is “concocted” .It is a common argument in history of british colonies ,i am not surprised zionist adapted it.Read anyone who is honest with research to challenge your views. Read chomsky(jewish),read pappe(jewish),read lowenstein(australian jewish) and than tell me. Never mind the poor muslims,they are not worth reading or believing for that matter to you.
Indian students in Sydney allege Lebanese youths attack them
PTI, June 11, 2009
Sydney: Indian students alleged on Thursday that Lebanese youths were behind the racially-motivated attacks on them here as they took to the streets for the third consecutive night protesting against racial attacks.
The spate of racial attacks against Indians spread to Sydney after members of the community were targeted in Melbourne.
Scores of Indian students last night took to the streets of Harris Park in Sydney for the third consecutive night to protest racially-motivated against them by Lebanese youths.
The protesters alleged that police were ignoring their pleas for protection.
The protests came a day after prime minister Kevin Rudd warned Indian students against “vigilante action” to prevent attacks against them.
Indian protesters continue to say that they were being attacked by Lebanese youths.
http://islamicterrorism.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/lebanese-muslim-gangs-attacking-indian-students-in-australia/
There’s plenty more where they came from
@Eeyore
“Your laugh for the day. Syeda speaks of “Proportional response”. ”
Well that laughable notion is on the mandate of UN. Israel has been laughing at UN mandate for very long. I am not surprised you find mirth in thousands of people dying to ensure that one elusive regime(Al-Qaida) is hurt.For so far you solidly remaim pro voilence. I am sorry my sense of humour cannot bear the weight of that many deaths. Vlad Tepes was remembered as one of the most brutal person in history. You dont surprise me.
@Shirl ,please tell me why does the word lebanese automatically translates into Muslims? Harris Park has far more christian lebanese than muslims. But i am still waiting where you let me know of Jihadi muslims ganging up on indians. Indian ministry held australia responsible, you can bet your bottom dollar if it were muslim than they would alot more to say on that issue.
@Nilk. Voilence against women and islam hmm. To my understanding islam doesnt recommend you to stoop to voilence rather it sets the limit of maximum force.Although i might add that is extremely unattractive to bring my parents into it. But i appreciate your concern for women as a woman myself. Muslim countries sadly arent exactly the rolemodel that their religion wants to make them. However islam does give men the right to strike women. I am not going to deny that . But it is my understanding that this striking is only to be used at the time of infidelty and even than the concept is to strike like you smack a child. I appreciate that this is in stark contrat to the feminist view of west. But so it is. I dont have a problem with it because firstly my Prophet (pbuh) himself roldemodled a behaviour where he didnt so much as fight with his wife when he suspected something that later came out to be false about his marriage. Infact all he had to say was “Beg pardon from Allah”.It is also taught that when a woman came to him complaining of his husband hitting her he said to hit him back but was later ordained by Allah that women donot get the right. It is a religion, it cannot be informed by human notions. So i am afraid that is how live with this belief. I have always personally viewed it in this light that Allah knows the nature of his creation, so allowing one strike with no force to showcase the height of his dissatisfaction Allah has actually prevented men from effectively engaging into voilence. May be you buy it, you dotn have to. But you asked about my belief system and i answered that.
Syeda I have read both historians and check the historical record before the second Moslem conquest started, the historians of the early 20th Century had no reason to fear Islam or to lie. And they are in direct contradiction to the people you are talking about, you want us to read people that support your viewpoint, but you don’t want to read people that show it to be wrong.
Look at it this way. the people i am talking about concoctingthese facts out of thin air or do they have evidence to back it up? If they do than you might need to add on board their ideas. I have had no histroical evidence tell me that Palestine was a land without arabs when jews started moving in. This was the guilt that west wanted to get off its chest after hitler episode although they probably missed the “charity begins at home notion” because guilt would only take them this far so it was easier to betray arabs and divide their land. Lawerence of arabia and all. Let me know what sources you got to back up you terra nullis belief.
@Syeda, thanks for responding.
However, I’ve yet to see in any quran where the conditions for striking the females in your care are outlined for men. I’ve had a look at the online translations at the quran explorer, and about all they say is basically a fellow only has to suspect his wife/sister/ward/daughter of disobedience and he has a range of options to deal with it.
Considering that even according to the hadiths, Mohammed hit Aisha, and as muslims you are required to follow his example, I guess you’re okay with the concept.
It is a shame, because it means that many women are unjustly condemned to violence to keep them in line because of, rather than in spite of, islam.
Really showing you true colours now Syeda by quoting the three most twisted, distorted people on the planet. Pappe has been proven to be wrong in just about everything he has put his name to. LOL !!
No one has said there weren’t any Arabs in the region of Palestine, when Jewish people from the old Soviet bloc countries started to arrive. There were just a very few trying to eke out a meagre existence on the dry barren land and Bedouin camel herders
Try reading Winston Churchill’s account of the region, or better still Mark Twain’s “Innocents Abroad” You will get a very good idea what was there,
It was only when the Jews started making the land come to life that the Arabs appeared. That’s even in your distorted history books.
I also know for a fact what was there. My father and his family lived there.
My grandparents fled the ravages of the Ukraine and escaped to England in the late 1800s.
Very early in 1920, when my father was only a few months old. They took the 10 children to Israel.
I have accounts galore from my father and his siblings of what was there and plenty of photos to prove it.
It was a hell hole. One of my uncles was killed by Arabs, at the age of 19, in 1922
Nov 2, 1917 British issued the Balfour Declaration
Which proves your warped version of history very wrong.
It wasn’t manadated because of Hitler, that just sped up the process.
You also need to learn to read.
No where did I say “lebanese automatically translates into Muslim”
Try reading the links I posted
@Nilk, i have told you my understanding of those verses. I cannot speak about the site that you posted. I frankly donot know who did translation and how well his command and authority is on knowledge. I have said much about understanding Quran before read up on it if you want. I have already said many muslims make the mistake of drawing out meaning without consulting a scholar. I have personally consulted a scholar on the issue so i am pretty confident in my claim.
I couldnt access the message board you posted. However if it is about incident it is than touching a woman to get her attention doesnot constitute as hitting her. I have also mentioned that when actually there was discord in Prophet’s pbuh marriage he never even had a verbal argument with his wife. All he did was withdrew within himself and further asked her to beg Allah’s pardon. My understanding remains unchanged by the sources you quoted.cheers
@Shirl even if i were to believe a politician Chruchill rather than Pappe (an academic) i would still ask you is it not an attack on sovereignty of nation if a third party begins migrating a different nation into land. How would you feel if lets say Newzealand started moving Afghanis into Perth because well it isnt really populated. And i donot even agree with Mr Churchill’s observation. He was spearheading his political interest which clashed with the natives. I dont expect him to be honest. Much like I dont expect Bush ,or Blair or Howard to be honest about current war. My true colours indeed. My policy is to stay honest. I dont think much of zionist regime and i certainly donot think much of their ethnic cleansing. I donot think much of their fertilizing Palestinian land either. Who cares? hitler was strenghtening Germans too. Doesn’t make him an asset to humanity. Infact most of power maximiser go haywire in order to secure their establishment.
Sorry about your uncle or anyother relative. It is a travesty but you have to realize that Palestinians casualties by far outnumber israeli ones.
@ Shirl regarding Indian thingy. Maybe i cannot read, why dont you quote from the link that you posted that
a) Attacker were muslims
b)attackers were jihadist against non muslims.
Thankyou.
Oh dear Syeda really showing your ignorance, Churchill a politician !!
I truly think that if you come to live in the West, then you should learn about it.
As to your idol Ilan Pappé !!!!!!!! Well
“””An activist in Israel’s fringe Communist party, he is among the most extreme of a group of radical Israeli historians who have sought to rewrite Israel’s history to suggest the country was born in original sin.
Pappé has long acknowledged that he is not objective and cares little about factual accuracy. He readily admits that ideology drives his historical writings and statements. And his ideology can be simply summed up: Israel is illegitimate and should be the target of international sanctions until it is dismantled as a Jewish state.
Pappé freely expresses his attitude toward historical investigation and academic objectivity:
There is no historian in the world who is objective. I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what’s happened. (“An Interview of Ilan Pappé,” Baudouin Loos, Le Soir [Bruxelles],Nov. 29, 1999)
I admit that my ideology influences my historical writings…(Ibid)
Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers. (Ibid)
The debate between us is on one level between historians who believe they are purely objective reconstructers of the past, like [Benny] Morris, and those who claim that they are subjective human beings striving to tell their own version of the past, like myself. (“Benny Morris’s Lies About My Book,” Ilan Pappé, Response to Morris’ critique of Pappé’s book, “A History of Palestine” published in the New Republic, March 22, 2004, History News Network, April 5, 2004)
[Historical] Narratives… when written by historians involved deeply in the subject matter they write about, such as in the case of Israeli historians who write about the Palestine conflict, is motivated also… by a deep involvement and a wish to make a point. This point is called ideology or politics. (Ibid)
Yes, I use Palestinian sources for the Intifada”””
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_print=1&x_context=8&x_nameinnews=122&x_article=994
Highly accurate ,… I think not !!!
Israel is the home of the Jews ,like it or lump it.
Those Arabs living in Gaza are the scum that were thrown out of Jordan and who Jordan has said in no uncertain terms, will ever be allowed back,
Ever heard of the Black September movement.?
No Arab/Muslim country wants them, they are trouble big time. Other Arab/Muslim countries treat them as cheap labour and sends them packing
By the way……..do you have any idea why they are called Arabs ?
Look it up
They sure as hell don’t come from where they are now
Did you know that more Jews were forced out of Arab/Muslim lands, than the Arabs who fled Israel at Partition.? Between 800,000-1,000,000 Jews were expelled from or fled their homes in Arab countries due to persecution and antisemitism
All those Jews were absorbed by Israel. The Arabs who fled Israel were refused entry into other countries.
Amazingly, Israel absorbed the sea of Arabic Jewish Refugees.
Why aren’t they compensated by UN , like the “Palestinians” – expelled from Jordan, not Israel?
The amount of money stolen is now worth over $80 billion.
Jewish-owned land lost in Arab countries: 38,625 sq.miles; Israel’s total area: 7,992 sq.miles.
That’s right fled. No one asked or forced the Arabs to leave, in fact, it’s a well publicised fact that they were asked not to flee.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132257#replies
PA Chief Abbas: We Left Galilee on Our Own
Fatah chief Mahmoud Abbas says the Arabs of the Galilee city of Tzfat left in 1948 not because they were driven out, but on their own volition.
Many biographies of Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas imply that his family became “refugees” because of the War of Independence in 1948. For instance, a BBC profile on Abbas when he succeeded Yasser Arafat as PLO chairman in 2005 writes, “In the light of his origins in Safed in Galilee – in what is now northern Israel – he is said to hold strong views about the right of return of Palestinian refugees.”
Answers.com states, “As a result of the Arab-Israel War of 1948, he became a refugee.” Wikipedia articles on the topic say the same – all giving the impression that the Abbas family was driven out and became homeless
However, Abbas himself – co-founder of Fatah with Arafat, and known as Abu Mazen – now tells a different story. Speaking with Al-Palestinia TV on Monday, Abbas admitted that his family was not expelled or driven out, but rather left for fear that the Jews might take revenge for the slaughter of 20 Jews in the city during the Arab pogroms of 19 years earlier.
In the words of Abbas:
“I am among those who were born in the city of Tzfat (Safed). We were a family of means. I studied in elementary school, and then came the naqba. At night, we left by foot from Tzfat, to the Jordan River, where we remained for a month. Then we went to Damascus, and then to our relatives in Jordan, and then we settled in Damascus.
“My father had money, and he spent his money systematically, and after a year, the money ran out and we began to work.
“The people’s basic motives brought them to run away for their lives and with their property. These [motives] were very important, for they feared the violence of the Zionist terrorist organizations – and especially those of us from Tzfat felt that there was an old desire for revenge from the rebellion of 1929, and this was in the memory of our families and parents.”
The “rebellion” Abbas referred to was a series of brutal Arab attacks on Jewish towns in the summer of 1929. Nearly 70 Jews were slaughtered in their homes in Hevron, 20 in Tzfat, 17 in Jerusalem, and others were murdered in Motza, Kfar Uriah and Tel Aviv.
The memory of the slaughter, Abbas said, “brought [our families] to understand that the military balance had changed, and that [we] no longer had military forces in their real meaning. There were only young people who fought, and there was an initial action. They felt that the balance of power had collapsed and they therefore decided to leave. The entire city was abandoned based on this thought – the thought of their property and saving themselves.
Return to Roots – in Damascus
It is notable that the Abbas family moved back to Damascus, as that is likely the place where it had originated less than 90 years earlier. Joan Peters, in her scholarly work “From Time Immemorial” on the Arab population of Israel, writes that in 1860, “Algerian tribes moved from Damascus en masse to Safed.” She notes that the Muslims in the city were mostly descended from Moorish settlers and from Kurds – more evidence negating the claim that the Arabs in the Land of Israel had been there “from time immemorial.”
Arab leaders caused refugee problem
By Joseph Farah
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=70765
I’ve written about “the world’s collective amnesia” when it comes to the so-called “root causes of the Middle East crisis.”
The conventional wisdom today suggests the new state of Israel in 1948 was to blame for the creation of the Arab refugee problem.
The mantra is repeated endlessly by U.S. State Department apparatchiks, Israel’s enemies around the globe and even by well-meaning, guilt-ridden Jews.
The entire Middle East peace process is based on this notion – that repatriation of Arab Palestinians in a new homeland of their own will solve the conflict.
There’s just one problem with the concept: It’s patently untrue.
In fact, I’ve been collecting, over the years, quotations from the Arab press that reveal the truth of the matter – that Arab aggression toward Israel and the Arab leadership’s own encouragement of flight by Arab Palestinians was the main cause of the world’s oldest refugee crisis.
Here are some oldies but goodies – not the words of Jews and Israelis, but the actual words of Arabs closer to the time of the events:
“The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem.”
– Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948
“The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees.”
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949
“Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it.”
– The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951
“The 15th May, 1948, arrived … On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead.”
– The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963
“For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs … By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy.”
– The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953
The truth is out there – but you’ve got to search for it.
The candid comments by Arabs in the Arab press continue to this day.
Here’s what Jawad Al Bashiti, an Arab Palestinian journalist in Jordan, wrote in Al-Ayyam May 13 of this year: “Remind me of one real cause from all the factors that have caused the ‘Palestinian Catastrophe,’ and I will remind you that it still exists. … The reasons for the Palestinian Catastrophe are the same reasons that have produced and are still producing our catastrophes today. During the Little Catrastophe, meaning the Palestinian Catastrophe, the following happened: The first war between Arabs and Israel had started and the ‘Arab Salvation Army’ came and told the Palestinians: ‘We have come to you in order to liquidate the Zionists and their state. Leave your houses and villages, you will return to them in a few days safely. Leave them so we can fulfill our mission (destroy Israel) in the best way and so you won’t be hurt.’ It became clear already then, when it was too late, that the support of the Arab states (against Israel) was a big illusion. Arabs fought as if intending to cause the ‘Palestinian Catastrophe.'”
The Arabs know the truth – if they read their own history.
There was no Jewish conspiracy to chase Arabs out of their homes in 1948. It never happened. There are, instead, plenty of historical records showing the Jews pleading with their Arab neighbors to stay and live in peace and harmony. Yet, despite the clear, unambiguous words of the Arab observers at the time, history has been successfully rewritten to turn the Jews into the bad guys.
The truth is that 68 percent of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 – perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier.
Even more importantly, the revised history has given the guilty a free ride. The Arab states that initiated the hostilities have never accepted responsibility – despite their enormous wealth and their ability to assimilate tens of millions of refugees in their largely under-populated nations. And other states have failed to hold them accountable.
It’s bad enough the Arab states created a small nation of refugees by their actions. It’s worse that they have successfully blamed that international crime on the Jews.
Today, of course, this cruel charade continues. The suffering of millions of Arabs is perpetuated only for political purposes by the Arab states. They are merely pawns in the war to destroy Israel.
There were some 100 million refugees around the world following World War II. The Palestinian Arab group is the only one in the world not absorbed or integrated into their own people’s lands. Since then, millions of Jewish refugees from around the world have been absorbed in the tiny nation of Israel.
It makes no sense to expect that same tiny Jewish state to solve a refugee crisis it did not create.
@Syeda:
Sahih Muslim #2127:
‘When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi’. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O ‘Aisha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?
Bukhari (72:715) – A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being “greener” than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.
Abu Dawud (2142) – “The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.”
Abu Dawud (2126) – “A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: ‘I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet).’ The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: ‘She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her'”
Syeda:
Re: “Nilk; Violence against women and Islam, hmmm.”
Included within the above post response you comment ” It is a religion, it cannot be informed by human notions”.
Thank you for so clearly pointing out the root trouble with Islam.
INDIAN MEDIA HIDING FACTS: It’s Lebanese Muslim attack against Australian Hindus. Posted in Great Hindu
The media, fails to mention what kind of Lebanese-Australians are apparently attacking Indians in Australia. Officialdom calls this a “law-and-order” issue, and the Indian press rants about “racism” in Australia. No one, it seems, is asking what kind of Lebanese these assailants are. Are they Christians? Or, more likely, are they Muslims? The Indians are mostly, one would assume, Hindus. Maybe this is a religious issue? Muslims, given Islamic tenets regarding polytheists and idolators, have a long, sordid, intolerant, and murderous history of “Hinduphobia.”
Two years back, I was studying for my MBA in Sydney. At my University every Indian student I knew was aware that we were supposed to avoid neighborhoods where young Lebanese men congregated. Since it was no secret then, I am assuming it’s no secret now. What political correctness gone amok is preventing this weekly, the Indian and Australian civil society and media from acknowledging and discussing is that, a majority of the attacks on the Indians were/are being carried out by Australians of Lebanese descent, who happen to be Muslim.The Lebanese young men are not doing this because a majority of Indian students down under happen to be Hindus; they are attacking Indians because they believe that we are “soft” targets. And, until the attackers are disabused of this perception, I am afraid the attacks will continue.
Australian PM urges protesters to ‘draw breath’
By Talek Harris –
SYDNEY (AFP) — Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd on Wednesday warned Indian students not to take the law into their own hands as protests against alleged racial violence stretched into a third night.
About 50 Indians confronted Lebanese youths in Sydney’s downmarket Harris Park area in a stand-off lasting about an hour before being persuaded to disperse by community leaders and a heavy police presence.
The latest incident comes after hundreds of Indians demonstrated on Monday night in response to an assault blamed on Lebanese men, ending in a revenge attack. About 70 gathered in the same area on Tuesday.
(CNN) — Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd called for calm Wednesday, assuring the Indian community that his country was still one of the safest study destinations in the world despite a series of attacks on Indian students in Sydney and Melbourne.
Australia insists the attacks are not racial, but rather “a regrettable part of urban life,” as Rudd put it in a radio interview on Wednesday.
Authorities say the Indian students are victims of opportunistic criminal gangs.
“Quite often, they are catching trains home from work late in the evening as many do not have access to cars,” said Simon Overland, chief commissioner for the Victoria state police. “They are often traveling alone and this is leaving them vulnerable to crime.”
The Indian community, however, alleges gangs are specifically targeting Indians. Activists say there have been about 1,500 attacks a year for the last three years — but lately, they have picked up.
“Initially, it used to be beating. Now people are being stabbed,” said Gautam Gupta, founder of the Melbourne-based Federation of Indian Students in Australia. “The innovation in crime is very disturbing.”
More than 80,000 Indians study in Australia, and the attacks have sparked a diplomatic dustup between the two countries
“I have been appalled by the senseless violence and crime. Some of it is racially motivated against our students in Australia,” said Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in a speech to the parliament.
Saying that they are tired of waiting for the Australian government to take action, Indian students — armed with bats — patrolled subway stations in the worst-affected suburbs Monday and Tuesday night.
Monday night, flag-waving Indians attacked a carload of Lebanese men in retaliation for the alleged assault of two Indian men by a group of ethic Lebanese earlier in the day….
Shia do not believe that it, the Koran, was first compiled by Uthman ibn Affan. The Sh?‘ah believe that the Qur’?n was gathered and compiled by Muhammad during his lifetime. This completed version of the Qur’?n was kept next to the pulpit of Muhammad within the Mosque of Madinah, where scholars would come to transcribe more copies. So in essense they do and they do not believe in the same Koran as they have an issue with its origin. The Sunnis are more honest. They believe in the Uthman Koran, which as we all know is one of many, the others being burned by the Caliph Uthman. It all adds to the controversy surrounding the Koran which, you, Syeda,are now for the first time in your life becoming aware of. This is just the tip of the iceberg, the more you look the more of human a book the Koran becomes rather A book by Mr Allah himself. The editor of the Koran is Uthman the Caliph. The Shia are embarrassed by this truth and so invented the lie that they believe in.
So which Koran do you believe in? Is it the Shia Koran or is it the one where Uthman the editor of Allah’s Koran is involved in? I myself believe in all these Korans (except the Shia Koran which is a myth). All the other korans which were burnt are historical and just as relevent as the Uthman Koran. What gave this caliph the right to burn all the other Korans. Why do you get so upset with a koran being burnt by someone today when your own caliph is the first koran burner? He showed us how to burn the koran first. We are learning from the Caliph himself. Why should the Kuffar not burn the Koran when we are only following one of the rightly guided caliphs. This may be our first step in following Islam. It has historical precedent in the Caliph Uthman who was rightly guided by Allah himself. But why would Allah allow someone to burn his Koran. Questions, questions.
It appears you do need to learn more about the Koran. So for your own further study I recommend that you study the doctrine of Abrogation in the Koran and the different types of Koran verse abrogation involved. Abrogation means cancelled. Some verses are cancelled. Any Koran scholar will teach you the complexities that the Koran throws up by its different verses and these are dealt with by the doctrine of abrogation.
I am not going to get into the Isreal debate as that is well dealt with by other posters but I will say that the Palastinans are very fat people. Just by looking at them we can say that they are nowhere as thin as the people in Bangladesh or the slums of India, or in parts of Africa. Why should one feel sorry for such well fed people. Other people in the world are much more desparate such as the blacks of Darfur. Is it not racist for you to only care about this well fed group who have restaurants all over the place including one with 16 pages of menu called the Roots club on Cairo Road in Gaza. This restaurant even has thier own youtube video and website. Plus the Palastinians even have a shopping mall which has just recently opened. Perhaps the good people of Darfur might one day pay it a visit if they avoid starving to death. Why are the Pallys so fat? Could it because they have the highest per capita aid allotment in the world. These so called refugee camps are in fact towns with plenty of infrastructure and what the people really need is fat camps to get them fit after they have spent all day sitting and day eating burgers. They are certainly in the top ten of the world’s fattest people. The Economist.com rankings for obesity put the palastinian men at number 8 for the most obese men in the world. The women get in at number three in the world of obese women. Lebenon is number one for the men and Quatar is number on for the women. At last we have found something that muslims are also number one at apart from terrorism and that is obesity. Check the list yourself and see how many Arab nations are in there. Ref: Vlad tepes blog starving palastinians.
@conq
1)i dont sound like a muslim because i donot seem to engage with you in a debate to “prove” islam divine? well there is a thing islam teaches when you come across someone who rejects. leave them be,no compulsion in religion.
This verse “no compulsion is religion” is abrogated. You need to study the doctrine of abrogation. Your local mullah will be happy to oblige in this part of your Islamic studies.
Thank you Shirl In Oz I would have had to do some research to make the points you did so thank you again.