Things are getting interesting…
ABC affiliate WKRP Channel 2 in Nashville did a story on the Former Muslims United ad placed on a Lamar Advertising digital billboard near the Stone’s River Mall in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. FMU colleague and executive director Nonie Darwish was interviewed as were a cross section of the community who had viewed the ad. Darwish said:
“I have no problem with religious aspects of Islam but Islam is majority a political system,” she told News 2. We are trying to alert the public. I don’t want to see it because they’re aiming at the Bible belt.”
Watch the WKRP news video. The WKRP news report, follows:
MURFREESBORO, Tenn. – The controversy over plans to expand the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro and construction a new mosque in Rutherford County continues.
The latest outburst against the mosque is an electronic billboard near the Stones River Mall.
The billboard, paid for by former Muslims, reads, “Stop the Murfreesboro mosque” and lists the Web site of Former Muslims United, an organization made up of people who used to be Muslim, sharing their opposition to Islam.
Nonie Darwish is a member of the California-based organization.
“I have no problem with religious aspects of Islam but Islam is majority a political system,” she told News 2. “We are trying to alert the public.”
The green background represents the Saudi National flag with the Muslim profession of faith on it.
According to Former Muslims United, the children on the billboard represent the target of the threat.
Darwish said, “I don’t want to see it because they’re aiming at the Bible belt.”
The billboard is the latest in the controversy that began weeks ago when the Rutherford County Planning Commission approved the project.
Mosque protestors are planning to present a petition to the Rutherford County Commission at the commission’s next meeting in August.
Because county officials already approved the proposal, it is solely up to them whether the project will continue.
Bravo Murfreesboro Tennessee!
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It is always best to be wary of the campaigns of people who have not merely abandoned their religious roots but turned against those roots in organized campaigns of defamation. They do not make worthy allies and are far too willing to engage in intentional distortions to achieve their aim – which is the destruction of the house they grew up in. By the way, I am not a Muslim.
To STOP the Mosque campaign – MURFREESBORO, Tennessee
Hello,
I have heard of your campaign against Mosques in your town, as a New Zealand Christian please allow me to intrude & contribute to this dialogue.
On the matter of freedom; ~freedom of religion & faith is a private matter~ being the blind mantras of our times. I am well aware of the guidelines for the US Senate for instance ~this house will make no rulings in the matter of religion~ This imperative was laid down when the west was seeking to exit a restrictive form of Catholicism, & to respect various Protestant interpretations. It was given by a house that had no experience or thought of Islam.
Man is never completely free; complete freedom is a myth.
Judicial independence presides over a received body of principled & ethical laws, specifically. There is no such thing as judicial freedom where judges can make any law they like.
The western body politic exercises independence in ethical politics, it does not have complete freedom to practice any politics of choice be it dictatorship or systemic misrepresentation..
In the western body religious, Bishops exercise Christian independence to apply a best practice form of a received faith to the conditions & level of development they preside over. There is no such thing as Bishopric freedom to practice any religions they like.
Freedom of religion, as attested in modern mythology & in some western legislations has no sound or lawful basis.
If this delinquency persists, Christianity will have to respond with an authoritative definition of the difference between responsible independence & the heresy of complete freedom.
…………………………
Why am I so concerned about Islam. I am concerned about many things like the growth of paganism in NZ (Treaty of Waitangi) the expansion of the Eastern cultures in the west, & the inadequacy of western secularism. Yet all history tells us our fortunes ebb & flow, we have had to deal with these challenges before, after a period of reverse we always come back.
No society which has fallen under the yoke of Islam has ever escaped. Countries where Islam became dominant 1,500 years ago, are still the repressed dysfunctional slaves of Islam today.
Islam is different, because temporary change in the balance of power & permanent enslavement are different.
My understanding of Islam… it is an ~other world~ Centuries of refinement & development have built its own body of intellectual capital which has its own answer to everything. In sum, Islam is the most complete virtual or alternate reality ever built.
Muslim’s live inside this phantasy. Jews & Christians use virtual reality to develop ideals & abstract concepts for the improvement of society; so virtual reality is a legitimate theological tool. Yet while Christianity & Buddhism also build alternate realities, they exercise separation between the ideal & the real world. Islam makes no such distinction. Islam is a oneness; under this oneness the real world is expected to comply with the rules of the fantasy. Muslims live inside a complete fantasy with absolute indifference to the state of the world, & deny responsibility for the deleterious effects their delinquency has on the real world. The only time they pay much attention to the real world, is if reality intrudes & disturbs the fantasy which is Islam. At which point they become disturbed, distressed, blaming & violent.
While Muslims profess they only want to live in peace, reality can have no peace with a fantasy which ignores the real world; one indifferent to & delinquent toward the real harm it does. Does a delinquent fantasy which seeks to enslave the world have any right to peace? If reality can have no peace with a delinquent fantasy, then all attempts at peace with Islam try to make peace where peace cannot be made. Christianity is a responsible fantasy which seeks to improve reality; yet Christians experience little peace in this higher endeavor, so why should Islam enjoy a right of peace in its drive to enslave.
While all religions are part fairytale (see my home-page) most of us can distinguish the difference between a good fairy & a bad one; indeed we have a duty to so distinguish. While the secular says Islam will change, it ignores the hold total immersion in the Islamic fantasy exerts over its people.
Other competing societies do offer some good points & are but a temporary reverse. While once established, the grip of Islam is so complete & absolute; it is effectively, an eternal damnation.
Christianity has always held Islam… ~the great tribulation~
Love is the foundation of justice, romance the foundation of dysfunction & despotism.
Christianity is based on Gods love, Islam is a romance.
I hold Muslims are forever unfit to receive the gift of the law God gave for the governance of his people, & can only be placed under the rule of the Sharia edicts the Allah entity gave for the management of his creatures.
Many forms of government can govern with or without rule of law. They are better with it, but they can govern without it. Democracy & rule of law are intricately & intimately inter-related; so much so rule of law is a pre-condition for democracy. As rule of law cannot be installed in Islam, any attempt at democracy is doomed to fail. It will last only as long as the west has the power to insist & our power is waning, not least because we are wasting it on ill advised projects. The Christian & Islamic world will always require two separate administrations.
Muslims chose their God as we chose ours, all choices have consequence & the flat earth philosophy of the secular world can by no means abrogate the law of consequence.
During the nineteenth century the five European powers tried to prop up & reform the Ottoman Caliphate which was held the sick man of Europe. They only persisted with it because they believed Muslims could not be governed by other means. Now we have failed to install rule of law & good government in Islamic states; confirming the traditional wisdom Islam can only be governed by the Caliphate system.
Some say the Iraq invasion is just about oil. Western imperialism has always been a mixture of idealism & pragmatism. The giving of better governance to the world while building a strong economy for ourselves, both for our own benefit & to attain the power to insist on better governance. Better governance will not be achieved without the power to insist; those who deride western self interest seem to think better governance will occur by sprinkling fairy dust, which it won’t. If I look at the imperialism of other countries, it is usually driven by pragmatism alone. In an imperfect world, I make no apology if the western mix of idealism & pragmatism is sometimes murky. The idealism we can have is the idealism we can resource.
……………………………….
The Bible is intentionally moral. (Intentional because man does not know what ultimate right & wrong is, or if it even exists; thus intentional best effort made in good faith)
The Ten Commandments are ten principles. Moral principles (set in stone) x interpretation & administration by contemporaneous judicial process = rule of law (more or less)
The Quran is amoral, the Sharia a set of arbitrary social legislations. (Arbitrary because the giver of the Sharia wouldn’t know a moral principle if he tripped over one in daylight) Deemed given by God, no recourse to the courts is required. No principles x no judicial process = a rule of fixed edicts.
Matter maintains its structural integrity by a set of laws, anti-matter presumably maintains structural integrity by something we might best call anti-law. The Bible lends itself to rule of the Law, the Quran to rule of anti-law. (More or less) Muslims speak off ~the otherness~ of Islam.
Islam’s structural integrity depends on something ~other than~ law. Christianity has clear differences with other cultures, it also inter-faces with them. Hybrids called Buddhist-Christian or Pagan-Christian, attest Christianity has difference & compatibility with other cultures. Other cultures are a community of common matter, with Christianity being the most developed form. Anti-matter cannot merge or mix with matter; there are no hybrids, Muslim-Christian or Muslim-Buddhist in Islam; there is only Muslim & Infidel. (unbeliever) There is not even neutral, as today’s murder of aid workers in Afghanistan attests.
Visiting NZ Mosques in the1990’s; I had a good Muslim sponsor, Islam was not well established so was lax in its ~firewall~ disciplines. Many were upset at a ~non-Muslim~ being where he should not be. What I experienced first hand informs me Muslims cannot integrate into our society, & the multi-cultural assumption they can is based on secular ignorance of the culture. Finally, do not believe we have no potential terrorists in NZ, because we do. I met plenty of extremists in the (Muslims only) inner sanctum.
We have never managed to graft rule of law to the Quranic condition amoral, (Muslims must reject the Quran before they can receive the law) Islam has never managed to graft the Sharia to the Biblical condition moral. (The Bible must be rejected as false, the perversion of Gods word by Jews & Christians; before the Sharia can be installed)
According to Islam, Jews & Christians falsified by the human hand to pervert the true message of God; according to Christians, Muhammad is a false prophet, a brigand & a heretic.
Tell me, how do the secular state propose to install any law common to both.
The traditional western – Christian view, is amoral & anti-law (lawless) is something we require freedom from.
……………………………………..
A closing note on the nature of Muhammad. He is a bit of a conundrum.
Where the Prophets & Apostles heard voices which were representative, Muhammad heard literal & actual voices which took him over & controlled his behaviors. (Repetitive delusional psychosis or schizophrenia) Where Patriarchs, Prophets & Apostles heard voices which were elective, at any time Moses could have said, ~no thanks mate, don’t do burning bushes, going to the pub, se ya~ Muhammad attests he was physically overwhelmed & compelled to recite. The first Muslim converted by the sword. Muhammad was also a very clever & manipulative man, modern science believes psychosis & genius are attributed to a common carrier gene.
Muslims attest ~Islam is innocent~ I agree the insane are unfit to stand trial. Yet in serious cases of schizophrenia the voices heard are usually harmful to the hearer as well as harming others. Muhammad’s voices never harmed him, but often stepped in to save his own precious little butt. Insane or not, he was obviously able to exercise some control.
Is Muhammad fit to stand trial; hard to judge. I believe he inhabited the twilight world of the part mad & part sane, a position from which you can direct events but only in a manner which is manipulative & totally unscrupulous.
May I refer you to three items under Islam tab, on my Webb-site. ~Islam – point of origin~ – 4 pages; ~Birth of Jihad~ – 2 pages; ~Born a Christian – born a Muslim – or born both~ – 4 pages
I am not called as a minister but as Patriarch of the family of Abraham. This calling was by voices representative & elective, so I hold it legitimate. Abraham has a duty of care to his delinquent son Ishmael, but has a greater duty in God to manage him as a delinquent.
On this note I close, hope I have contributed something useful to your cause, & if you feel I might be able to assist in any further way, please feel free to ask.
Christ be with you.
Ken Maynard Auckland New Zealand.
e-mail… communichristi@gmail.com
Webb… http://www.communichristi.org.nz
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Posted to Jakarta Post 14th March 2010 on matters of religious tolerance.
In giving his support to a proposed Mosque near ground zero in New York, President Obama said… “This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable.”
I have seen Obama make misjudgments before, but human error is simply part of politics & life, so I do not hold it against him. This is the first time I have seen him get it completely wrong.
I can only respond, ~this is the Christian world, & our commitment to the Judaic – Christian God must be unshakeable~
In the west so called religious freedom lived in co-existence with the secular state, as traditionally western secularism remained basically Christian.
In the west freedom of religion has been centered on religious Christian (church over state) or secular Christian (state over church) Our society has remained essentially Christian in either event; it is only in recent times that freedom of religion has been extended to question whether our society should be Christian at all. This is an entirely different context to the situation which prevailed when the founding fathers of America espoused the freedom of religion clause. So much so, that these founding principles no longer have any validity in this hugely changed context.
In upholding American principles over Christian principles President Obama has embarked on an ill advised course of action. One which will divide the west, & cause many of us to choose between God & state. ~You cannot serve two masters, less you deceive the one & betray the other~ The rise in secularism in NZ has already compelled me to choose I am a Christian, & a stateless one at that, as the rise of a Godless secularism has left me no choice but to surrender my citizenship of the NZ secular state.
This will probably be my last posting to this site, not because I have withdrawn support but because I do not bore people with repeats.
Ken Maynard e-mail… communichristi@gmail.com
Webb… http://www.communichristi.org.nz
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I live in the boro and I feel sick to my stomach! To all those who oppose this “Religious” place of worship, why do not you oppose any of the “Christian” centers that pop up all the time? I guess it is ok for the Christians, but no one else! You are all still living in the days of the KKK! Get a life! I sat in the “City Cafe” the other day and listened to one of the old-timer GOP big mouths who frequent it (they have their own table), spew a lot of horse crap about this place of worship and how wrong it is. Therefore, now “Freedom of Religion” is wrong. These assclowns flap their gums and not one intelligent word comes out! I say, stop all the Christian churches first, then you can beat on other religions!
Mike yeah! And the police have high powered weapons and cars and the mafia have to pay for their own! That doesn’t make sense. And petty criminals, they have on real weapons or cars at all. Seems wrong. Oh! And it doesn’t seem right that there are no Nazi memorials in Holland, England. Belgium, Poland and all the other places they attacked looted raped and tried to destroy and to a degree did.
And where is the Shinto Temple at Pearl Harbour? After all some Japanese may have actually been shot down there while they were attacking that port by surprise without warning or declaration of war.
Relativism is for brain-dead idiots who want to peddle sanctimony and use intellectual slight of hand to do it. A mosque is not a church. There are no weapons factories in churches. Mosques are where the 911 attacks were planned and I mean both attacks on the WTC not just 2001
Why would you need a one hundred million dollar mosque in Murfreesboro TN when there is only two hundred and fifty muslims that live there. I can not start a church in there country because I would be put to death . I live in M’Boro and the Mosque is not a church because only muslims are aloud to go inside and why are they building three in Tennessee wake up American the government does nothing about these extremist terrorist. What ever consoulperson voted for this we need to get them out of office. that is the way we fight with our vote. I worked with muslim men and I was a boss and they refused to do what a women asked. Wake up ladies and American and fight for our rights. seven people took out the ten comandments in courts. no prayer in school except the muslims. I totally disagree with a Mosque then then next thing will be to bring Islamic laws in our country.
I am not a devout religious person, but do consider myself a Christian. I also still have a functioning brain, and it is telling me to stand up and resist this insanity of Muslim intrusion into our culture at a time where we are expending unbelievable amounts of blood and capital to overcome this enemy abroad. They are simply walking in through the back door and setting up for full scale takeover on our own soil. They prey upon our naive liberal acceptance of all religions to to set up these “Trogan Horses” all across the country. It is time to stand strong against these obscene monuments to our enemies. They are getting way too bold. They only respect strength. They may express brotherly love but only as long as we can be useful idiots.
I grew up in M’boro. Good folk, good country, proud Americans.
A few years later, I see M’boro in the news, and I’m ashamed. How can you deny your neighbors the right to worship? Can you really look your co-workers in the eye and believe that they’re plotting against you?
Deny the right to worship is one thing. But deny the right to plot against you is another.
As a devout person to all moralities and religions, I find this group utterly rubbish. Calling Islam the religion of the devil or a sinister upbringing is actually a coward statement to make. Islam is developed on many ideals of Christianity and Judaism, as it contains many similar beliefs. Calling Islam of the devil is calling its ideals to be of devil origin. Likewise this means that Christianity and Judaism as well as other religions containing similar ideas of Islam would be origin of the devil.
Now would any of you hypocrites agree with that?
I think not.
Hello,
I am from India. Please learn lessons from Kashmir India. Muslims appear to be peaceful and loving but when they consolidate their position they destroy civilizations. For more than 1400 years muslims have killed 270 million non-muslims. Please beware of the islamic agenda Americans.
Islam’s founder mohammed was the 1st muslim terrorist. Koran wants all non-believers killed. Ignorance is not tolerance. If you tolerate this demonic cult they will one day destroy you!!! Tennaseans wake up!!!
John Smith:
Read the Koran before you dose everyone with your sanctimony.
John Smith:
Islam was not developed of ideas from Judaism and Christianity but by stealing Jewish and Christian scriptures. Koran requires Christians and Jews to pay taxes just because they are Christians and Jews. Mohammed, the founder of islam happened to watch his daughter-in-law changing her dress and he was captivated by her beauty and he claimed to have received a revelation from allah and his son divorced his wife so that she can become another wife of this great “prophet”. What a great example of all islamic fathers-in-law
a mosque in Murfreesboro is not right just as much as the Muslim woman on tv speeking with a southern accent,with all do respect,not the right place
Put some bacon, sausage and ham at their doorstep and tell them to ENJOY!
Tell them to take their freakin’ mosque and go back to where they came from!!!!!!!
Hey, Muslims – take your mosque and stick it up your ass and SPIN ON IT!!?
10th November, 2010.
In response to President Obama’s speech in Indonesia which stated his desire to build bridges with the Muslim world, in the cause of our common interest in progress.
Firstly I wish to state this a worthwhile ideal; one apparently heartfelt by President Obama, & by many other reasonable thinking people in today’s world. Yet my view is idealism must be based on realism, & must be practical to achieve. This ideal founders on this reality check.
Ishmael was cast out of the house of Abraham, because he rejected Isaac as the legitimate succession. Yet both Isaac & Ishmael were assured they would be great nations. Thus the world is divided between those who are for the Most High God of Israel, his Son Christ Jesus & all off their works; & those who are against him. It is the Most High who is the demarcation point between the two faiths, not levels of human development or progress
Many things have changed & changed greatly since the time of Abraham. Science, knowledge & technology have advanced hugely, as has the growth of human numbers. Yet these are practical advances only, they are not changes in any way relevant to the dispute between the two faiths. Modern change has changed many things for the better, & also presents us with new & disturbing challenges. Yet it accords no new development which addresses the dispute between Isaac & Ishmael. Some things change, others things do not change. MODERN CHANGE IS NOT RELEVANT TO THE ISSUES OF DISPUTE BETWEEN THE TWO FAITHS.
I am a religious technician, I do forensic enquiry into the structure & engineering of religions. I can certify the works of Abraham, Moses, & St Paul, as sound strong & capable of enduring until the end of time.
While I find Muhammad to be deeply disagreeable to me, I respect his genius as an engineer. His work too is soundly designed & capable of enduring until the end of time.
The Bible is the book of Isaac, it brings forth a fully developed position FOR the Most High. The Quran is the book of Ishmael, it brings forth a fully developed case AGAINST him.
As both faiths are capable of enduring as they are; each would cease to be what they are if they did change, & modern change is not of a nature which affects the differences between us, I believe our differences are irresolvable until the end of time. (As the Bible predicts)
Sorry Mr. President… its not the end of time or the last day of final judgment…just yet.
Ken Maynard. email…. communichristi@gmail.com
Homepage…. http://www.communichristi.org.nz
Use a Firefox or Safari Webb-browser for full use of this site.
As salamu aleykum to all Muslims, and greetings to all other people of good will! In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful (as every chapter in Qur’an begins except one), The Maker of Heavens and the Earth, Lord of all that exists and all the messengers and prophets, including Issa ibn Maryam (Jesus the son of Mary) and Muhammad ibn Abdullah, may peace and blessings be upon all of them, I would like to share with you, that with the help of the Creator and the Sustainer of the worlds, as we say INSHALLAH, the Masjeed, or our place of worship and prayers in the Murfreesboro will be soon completed. We as Muslims, extend this invitation to you all, the willingly ignorant ones, as well as the haters to come in peace to our place and have dialogue with us. Let’s get to know each other before we make any accusation and judgments against each other… I am sure, many of you will be surprised to what you will find out, inshallah! That includes you too “Mr. Scholar” Ken Maynard, we are always open for constructive dialogue, just make sure you be ready and bring ALL of your sound arguments and evidences… In the name of Allah, I greet you all with PEACE (as Jesus greeted his disciples) and am looking forward to see some of you, if not all, at our future Masjeed in Murfreesboro. – Abu Ahmed Abdullah
In response to Abu Ahmed Abdullah,
Firstly, thank you for your invitation; I too believe face to face meetings are off more worth than debate through the media.
Yet the geographic reality is, I am in New Zealand & lack the means just to up & go off to visit America any time I choose.
Since receiving your invitation yesterday, I have given consideration to a more in depth internet debate, yet I doubt I could add anything which is not already posted to my Webb-site.
While open public meetings are the preferred forum; I doubt much could be achieved at an opening ceremony itself, as these are usually run to a controlled agenda.
Most preferred would be a debate before a mixed audience of Christians, Muslims & Atheists, perhaps in association with your opening ceremony, rather than as a direct part of the opening ceremony itself. Obviously, participants in such a meeting would have to address the matter of evidences.
You have managed to concentrate my thinking on the best forum for an open & transparent debate. Yet I cannot see such a debate happening in this instance, as I lack the means to visit America at this time. Further, even if the means were available to visit the US, I would be looking to a wider agenda than just one meeting.
Ken Maynard. http://www.communichristi.org.nz Use a Firefox or Safari browser.
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
I send greetings of peace, and thank you for your response Mr. Maynard.
It is unfortunate that you cannot visit our community. However I agree that we can have an internet dialogue, at least.
I have read your post from Nov. 10th 2010, where you stated that you are a “religious technician” which I think is great, considering that almost 99% posters here have actually never read nor studied their own book, let alone any authentic Islamic script.
I am interested if you could elaborate on your statement regarding Ishmael and his rejection of Isaac in the light of Biblical scripture, that is, the actual reason of his and his mother’s expulsion to the desert…
Thank you!
Abu Ahmed Abdullah!
To Abu Ahmed Abdullah,
In response to your request for an internet debate, presumably through this site.
1… I need to ask Mr Vlad Tepes if he is prepared to allow his site to be seconded for a dialogue between the two of us, when he & his associates dedicated this blog to their own purposes. I will endeavor to be brief in my submissions, yet some of them could run out to a few pages. It is for the people who run this site to decide if they are prepared to allow this, or whether they consider it inappropriate for their purposes. Vlad, perhaps you could contact me directly on that.
2… As Christian history & theology is extensive in nature, & so too is Islamic theology & its worldview, I, at least from my end intend to stick to my main position on the issues in question without being side tracked into the many associated issues.
I am familiar with Hans Kung’s massive tome ~Islam~ One level of myself admires it. Only the meticulous German work ethic could have produced such a laborious work of scholarship & cross referencing. At my other level I am bemused at his foolishness in being drawn into a trap. Only a dumb Kraut could have got himself that deep in the woods he cant see the forest for the trees & has finished up hopelessly lost.
3… I regret that we are not able to hold a public meeting of Christians, Muslims & Atheists, where I could fulfill your request for evidences of the GREATER truth of the Christian faith by physically producing them, something I am unable to do over the internet.
On the LESSER matter of debating Isaac & Ishmael, this I feel able to do by internet debate, given a few days to refine a suitable paper. Yet firstly I need permission from the blog master to conduct such a debate on this site… second I intend to debate core issues only. I stay close to a God who sees the whole of the forest; I have no intention of making Kung’s mistake of taking up endless side issues which drew him deeper & deeper into the woods until he became lost.
Ken Maynard. http://www.communichristi.org.nz Use a Firefox or Safari browser.
Ok… 🙂 Very well then. I will be visiting this site on and off and will see what the decision will be.
Peace
16 November, 2010. To Abu Ahmed Abdullah, Full text…. 6 x A4 pages.
Summary in 3 paragraphs.
As Einstein was to say at a later date… ~you cannot solve a problem at the same level of consciousness that created the problem in the first place~ The Biblical figures all sought solutions from a level of consciousness ~above~ the ordinary level of consciousness that creates mans problems.
While Muslims attest Muhammad worked on another plane to the rest of us, as indeed he did; Jews & Christians are obdurate, other plane or not, the insane are not a solution.
In Bible & Quran we are confronted with clear choices, there are only two extra-ordinary levels of consciousness available to man. The divine, Father, Son & Holy Spirit who stand above us, Isaiah 55:8-9 ~My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are you ways my ways. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways~
The only other alternate are the clinically insane, like Muhammad. Divine or insane are the only two extra-ordinary levels of consciousness available to man. Choose… which of the two would you follow?
……SUMMARY ENDS… full item below.
Your enquiry was about Isaac & Ishmael, to understand them we must first understand Abraham, to understand Abraham we needs understand that which occurred before him.
Our base natures are OK to run a cow, a fish or a butterfly, they were even sufficient for early man. Yet from the date of Adam 6,000 years ago, more or less, axial age man had evolved into a self determining species with dominion over nature. He had learned to coordinate his capacity for abstract thought with the hands of a toolmaker, he had further eaten of the tree of knowledge thus taking the power of good & evil unto himself.
Our base natures may save a cow or a butterfly, but would not save this more developed entity. While the physical difference between man & the animals remained small, the gulf in our spiritual, psychological & material conditions had grown huge. This new entity faced daunting challenges unique to himself; he could no longer be saved in the lowest, but could only seek salvation in the highest he was capable off.
The Most High made himself known to Adam, the immature & adolescent Adam rejected his offer. Adam is representative of man at a time when he stood at the crossroads of higher development. The voice of the one who speaks for the many in his times, Adam is not a specific individual.
Cain killed Abel, whilst it is difficult to clearly interpret early myths, most probably a genocide carried out at multiple locations & times as early developed man fought pre-existing hunter gatherer for territory & resources. An event has to be off a large scale, repeated at various times & locations (universalism) & to have changed the course & direction of the human experiment, before it is off sufficient moment to merit mention in the Bible.
Abraham is accredited as exiled from the city of Ur. In practice Abraham too is representative. During the period between Adam & Abraham many good men will have lost power struggles & been forced into exile with their faction, plus transportable goods, portable wealth & live stock. Many of these would have felt their exile unjust, would have pondered how to bring forth a higher God. Probably as some people see the UN, a higher authority who would take all the minor states & petty Gods, bang their squabbling heads together & bring them to order for the common good.
There would have been many Abraham’s over an extended period, & probably a number of them at any one time; which is why Abraham is credited with having been at so many different places at widely varying times. A few Abraham’s would have gone out a limb to visit Mecca as local Meccan myth attests, yet the Bible concentrates on the main migration routes; Mesopotamia through Syria, Palestine (Israel) to Egypt. The Abraham given in the Bible is representative of the many Abraham’s, each of whom had similar experiences & reached similar conclusions. As such the Biblical Abraham is something the Bible often does… ~the voice of the one who speaks for the sum of the many~
When Abraham stood before God & said ~I have no son~ did he mean he had no son worthy in God? This seems more likely, than his having no natural sons at all.
Abraham & his God got together & Isaac was created. The circumstances of his conception & birth are not biologically possible, so stating ~created~ When God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac (all his higher hopes & aspirations) Abraham replied ~off course I will, but only if my higher hopes & aspirations require me to~ Isaac has no life of his own, his life is a cut & paste from Abraham’s life. Courtship of Rebekah is carried out by Abraham’s servant. We know Abraham, Esau, Jacob & Joseph as people, we can feel, smell & taste the personality of each. Isaac is a blank personality, he functions as a puppet glove not actually there. When it came time to give his blessing, the most important succession in history, he was senile & did not know who to give it to.
It is possible for an older male to have fathered a child in the servant Hagar, a woman of child bearing age, yet other aspects of Ishmael encourage me to believe he too was a created construct. It better fits the overall picture, & the events in motion at the time.
All of us are born with a base nature & a higher nature which cannot be physically separated. As the mother said when Solomon wanted to divide the baby, ~no, no, NO! You kill both halves~ Both of Abraham’s sons are representative, Ishmael the firstborn, represents the previously dominant base nature of man, Isaac, the second born represents the but recently matured higher nature of man. Abraham transfers the margin of sovereignty to mans newly matured higher nature, so naming Isaac as the legitimate succession. But like any transfer of government power, it is a turbulent, confused & vigorously contested transition. (Something Islam continues to contest to this day)
On Esau & Jacob; the time of Abraham was a period of pagan customs, one of which is giving grand parents a couple of grandchildren to raise as their own. When we raise our own children we raise them for practical skills, farmers, huntsmen, businessmen etc.
When we reach Abraham’s age we have moved on to spiritual things. Grand children raised by grand parents are often raised as special children, usually for the office of Shaman or Priest. Esau & Jacob probably grand-children of Abraham, raised to be Priests of the Most High, & raised in belief the mythological Isaac was their biological father. Esau seems to have believed common gossip Isaac did not exist. He sold his birthright somewhat cheaply, for which God has never forgiven. (see Malachi) Thus Jacob, the first biological human to be true to the Most High, was renamed Israel.
We can only interpret Genesis in partnership with our understanding of man as a developing species. In partnership with what history & anthropology inform us on the daunting challenges faced by man, as he made the confused & muddled transition from pagan hunter gatherer to early agrarian industrial society.
We can only understand the Patriarchs, Prophets & Apostles as sincere decent men seeking guidance from the Most High. As Einstein was to say at a much later date… ~you cannot solve a problem at the same level of consciousness that created the problem in the first place~ The Biblical figures all sought solutions from a level of consciousness ~above~ the ordinary level of consciousness that creates mans problems.
They succeeded only in variable degree yet we persist with this search; given we have no other higher plane to look for the salvation of man. Variable results or not, we will keep working it, it is not as if we have choices.
While Muslims attest Muhammad worked on another plane to the rest of us, as indeed he did; Jews & Christians are obdurate, other plane or not, the insane are not a solution.
In Bible & Quran we are confronted with clear choices, there are only two extra-ordinary levels of consciousness available to man. The divine, Father, Son & Holy Spirit who stand above us, Isaiah 55:8-9 ~ As the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways~ or the clinically insane Muhammad, Divine or insane are the only two extra-ordinary levels of consciousness available to man. Choose… which of the two would you follow?
Importantly the Biblical figures left us an example that all other persons can attempt to emulate to the extent we have capacity or will; while Muhammad tried to usurp this privilege entirely & exclusively to himself. Muhammad claims, Prime Cause, whomever or whatever he might be, spoke through him exclusively. He bestowed all the power, all the money & all the women as properties Muhammad could solely disburse for all of time. He was obsessed with minor civil codes of ritual worship, clothing & sex, which he gave as fixed edicts for all of time. What is this Prime Cause Muhammad called Allah, a village idiot endlessly obsessed with minor matters of little consequence?
While Prime Cause speaks to all mankind through his works generically, I am no where aware of his speaking in words to any human, & I can see no reason why he would. Abraham, Moses & the Apostles heard voices which were representative & elective; a higher calling, at no time did they hear literal & actual voices that controlled them.
In closing this section, I wish to state I am quite comfortable with man made Gods. It is we the Patriarch’s who bought forth the Most High God of Israel. (Having been called to the office of Patriarch, I can hardly not be comfortable with man-made) In nature & in physics it seems we exist as pieces of flotsam adrift in a void. Man must make his own solutions… commencing from the base Biblical questions… ~What is the meaning & purpose of man & his society?~ ~Off all the options available to man, which are most meet for I a human to deify?~
Cars, are man-made, as are government, law, computers & bread. I use these products & have faith in them, thus I have no difficulty as certifying the Bible as the best efforts off the best of men acting in good faith. Off all the religions made by man they bought forth the one most meet for I a human to deify. As a human I have to live in some house be it man made or not. The Bible accords the best of houses, thus I pray… ~May I abide in thine house forever~
Thus, sayeth Abraham, father of Isaac & Ishmael. A father whose heart is full for his true son Isaac, & a father who grieves for his lost son Ishmael.
……………………………………………………….
Abu, the above item deals with Isaac & Ishmael, you also asked about the opening up of a well for the cast out Hagar. I do not wish to write a book, allow me to be brief as I can.
All our motor functions are incorporated within the base creature program. Yet the only thing which can save a developed species like humanity is our higher natures.
Ishmael & Isaac each have a monopoly on the provision of services the other does not duplicate. Our base natures, Ishmael-Muhammad accord function, our higher natures Isaac-Christ accord salvation. (in the highest)
As each stands on its own monopoly, each can hold out against the other until the end of time. Conflict & division within the family of Abraham, IS NOT going to be resolved in our time.
While some fundamentalist Christians hope for the last days when God will finally shoot Satan, for myself I counsel ~lets wait until the last days shall we~ Most of us enjoy food, drink, sex & breathing too much, to end our physical functions just yet. My very much alive grand-children have plans for a material & physical future; they would not like it if their grand-dad shot Satan today.
Why did God open up a well for the cast out Hagar? Be he delinquent or not, it was necessary that Ishmael continue to live. Ishmael also has his own monopoly base which can be abused to ensure Islam’s independence until the last days.
Abraham had grand-children who expected a physical life, my grandchildren expect the same. Both Patriarchs endorse Gods opening up of a well for the departing Hagar, while both Patriarchs reserve the right to treat Ishmael-Islam as a delinquent Son.
Some Christian offices burble on that God loves Ishmael out of the goodness of his heart. I work for Christ’s old man directly, & know him as a hard-nosed boss who has shot out plenty of other people he don’t like. For myself, I believe he makes a secondary accommodation for Ishmael out of practical necessity, a necessity Islam is prepared to abuse & leverage for all it can get.
Christian theology generally attests Muslims go to hell. Catholic’s & Protestants widely debate the terms & duration of this condemnation, & also have varying concepts on the terms & conditions on which Muslims can be redeemed in Christ. Orthodox Christians will not discuss it. If being consigned to hell is given by God, there is nothing to discuss. (Black, white & simple is the Orthodox faith) The rest of Christendom a little more complicated, but there is consensual agreement in principle… ~Muslims go to hell~
Christian theology holds. ~those in hell do not reform or repent, but continue to reject & rebel against God in the highest even whilst in hell~ A fair assessment of Muslims who reside in the living purgatory which is Islam, only to continue to deny the Most High & his Son, to instead plot to dominate, subjugate or destroy all Israel & all Christendom
For myself, I believe Muslims are saved or stored in the upper reaches of hell. As I put it ~stored suspended in purgatory pending a future salvation in Christ~ This is distinct from Christians who, through Christ, are saved with the Father in heaven. Saved or stored at what level of heaven is open to debate, but least we are saved in it.
As our base natures cannot be destroyed or dispensed with, it is necessary for God to accord a second tier salvation of last resort, if our base natures are delinquent enough to refuse to submit to the sovereignty of our higher natures. This is open to abuse. Certainly Muhammad had no conscience; this marginalized misfit believed ~if you can get the establishment by the nuts, SQUEEZE FOR EVERY THING YOU CAN GET~
In many ways Muhammad seems to play devils advocate in leading people astray as Satan did in the tempting of Job. Off note… God did not judge against Satan for doing what he do; rather he judged FOR Job because Job remained TRUE. If Muhammad was fully sane he would stand trial on judgment day, if completely insane he would be exempt judgment. But half mad half sane is a marginal call, only God can make on the day off judgment.
Abraham to Islam… ~Muhammad himself may never be bought to trial. It is over to God on judgment day, but he may be excused judgment by reason of insanity & the other infirmities which afflicted him~ Yet Muslims who follow Muhammad are not insane, nor particularly deficient in any faculty which sets them apart from human norms. Come judgment day, Muhammad himself may be off the hook, but ordinary Muslims who are misguided enough to follow him… ~will be judged & are fit to stand trial~
………………………
In closing, I am called to the office of Patriarch; one of the administrative offices of Christendom which answers to the Father directly. Kings, Congressmen, Judges, Magistrates, senior public servants, CEO’s & company directors answer to the Father. All the articles of governance, law & legislation’s are given in the OT, as are the articles of war. The NT merely affirms the Fathers dominion over such things.
There is no duplication of services within the Trinity, less people become confused as to who has dominion over what. The Bible is fully transparent in informing what falls under the auspices of the Father, what falls under the auspices of the Son, & what falls under the auspices of the Holy Spirit.
The Son has dominion over redemption, intercession, mentoring, example, personal intimate; Lord, King & Savior off the vast body of ordinary people. The offices of Priest, minister & Bishop are called to administer the great commission & administer the sacraments on behalf of the Son, we who answer to the Father directly do not.
Yet the agents of the Father have a legitimate role in upholding the Son. Indeed have a duty to uphold the Son & the church which administers in his name. Given… ~this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased~ we can hardly not.
Abu, I have addressed your questions on Isaac, Ishmael & Hagar using the limited medium of internet forum. Religion is not contained within the written word, but within how we collectively & severally experience that which we call God. I look forward to a living experience in the future, one in which Christian. Muslim & Atheist meet in common conclave. At such a meeting this Patriarch can produce the evidences which you originally requested off me.
Ken Maynard. Patriarch… family of Abraham.
http://www.communichristi.org.nz Use a Firefox or Safari browser.
Alhamdulillah. All praise is to Allah, the Creator and Sustainer of all that exists. In the name of Allah, Most Merciful, Most Gracious.
Ken, I have read and re-read your post twice and was trying very hard to make sense of what you, self appointed prophet-like “patriarch” wanted to say. I have asked you a SIMPLE question as to explain WHY or WHAT CAUSED Sarah to expel Hagar and her son Ishmael.
You on the other hand have written so much, without saying almost ANYTHING relative to the topic. You have made many other “unsubstantiated” claims… i.e. ‘clinical insanity’ of Muhammad (peace be upon him) yet without ONE SOLID argument to prove your claim!?
YOU BARELY TOUCHED ON THE TOPIC OF ISHMAEL AND ISAAC…
I understand you live in hatred towards Islam, and I understand it must be hard, hence your inability to focus on the point in question.
I would like to give you another try… please, stick to the point, and PLEASE start bringing forth solid arguments regarding your twisted claims of various kinds. If you would stick to the point in question instead throwing so many irrelevant statements, your posts may not look like a “book” and may actually go to the point.
I would BET that there are many Christians here, who, if they read your post, would have hard time following what you are trying to say. Here in Tennessee, we are good ‘ole simple and plain people, who speak in pretty plain language, so, instead of being carried away with your self appointed divinity of some kind, please make it understandable for all of us. 🙂
Thank you for your effort and I am looking forward to actual dialogue (or debate as you keep underlining).
P.S. I have never mentioned about “opening up the well for cast out Hagar…” I have no idea where you got that from… 🙂
Must be some of the voices you hear?!
Peace!
To… Abu Ahmed Abdullah, 17 November, 2010.
At its simplest, the base nature of man was dominant in early man, as this was suited to man’s early level of development, which was more concerned with physical survival than with higher development. Thus Ishmael is the first born of Abraham. (The first born of man)
While Christ was present from the beginnings, in early man he was present only in latent form. Our higher natures only came to maturity in the more developed societies, which provided a stable platform for man to move on to higher things. Thus Isaac is the second born of Abraham. (The second born of man)
As first born, Ishmael expected the mantle of legitimate succession to fall on him, as this is the normal rule of inheritance. When God conferred the succession on the second born; Ishmael & his mother Hagar were contemptuous of the second born Isaac, & openly antagonistic to him.
Sarah, having a mothers protective instinct saw it first, she bought the matter to Abraham’s attention, who consulted with the Most High. All agreed, Ishmael & his mother could not stay in Abraham’s house, as their open antagonism comprised a direct threat to the physical safety of Isaac.
As Islam comprises a direst physical threat to the people of Abraham’s God today.
So long as Ishmael-Islam continues to comprise a threat to the people of God, Ishmael will not be readmitted to the house of Abraham.
You speak of hate, yet Abraham’s heart was heavy for the cast out Ishmael. We do not hate Islam, we grieve for a lost, delinquent people, & hope for your redemption. In the interim, we will protect ourselves from your delinquency as need arises.
On this note I close this dialogue. We have not agreed for four thousand years, do not agree now, & both sides are committed to their separate paths until the end of time. It is not within my capacity, nor is it my right, to reconcile those whom God has set asunder for all off time. Abraham could not do it in his time, every other attempt has failed since. Ishmael cannot return to the house of his father, until he embraces the Isaac line (our higher natures) as the legitimate succession & Christianity as Gods agent on this earth.
Ken Maynard. Patriarch… family of Abraham.
http://www.communichristi.org.nz Use a Firefox or Safari browser.
Alhamdulillah! All praise is to Allah, The Creator and The Sustainer of the worlds. I thank Him alone for this opportunity, again, to shed some light on certain issues which have been brought forth.
In The Name of Almighty Lord, I will start with saying that I am very sad and little disappointed in you quitting this dialogue (debate as you call it) so early. I was hoping we were going to have a constructive interfaith dialogue. I call such “short attacks” as “STICK AND RUN” that is when one comes and throws many claims and unsubstantiated attacks, and then run, either because they cannot prove their claims or they are afraid what “the other side” may respond with… 🙂
However it is, I will post my response to your statements.
First off, I could not help but note, how often you put down Ishmael, the son of Abraham, one of his seed.
YOUR STATEMENT: “All agreed, Ishmael & his mother could not stay in Abraham’s house, as their open antagonism comprised a direct threat to the physical safety of Isaac.
As Islam comprises a direst physical threat to the people of Abraham’s God today.”
– Now, Ken, I caught there several “KEY WORDS” which I see you like to “slide into” your statements… almost like the media, by “sensationalizing” certain events. The “key words” in questions are: ANTAGONISM, DIRECT THREAT, PHYSICAL SAFETY, then you attempt to somehow connect Islam as a “threat” to the people of Abraham’s God.
Ok, let us then look at that “antagonism and the direct threat to the physical being of Isaac” (peace be with him).
The story of Abraham and his family is found in the book of Genesis, more exactly the verse which you allude to is Gen. 21:9 – “And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham MOCKING.” – There it is Ken, the pure physical threat of MOCKING the child of Sarah (Isaac). The co-reference to that verse is in Gal. 4:29 – “But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.” Persecuted? What did Ishmael do to qualify as the “persecutor” of Isaac. I fail to find such details. I am speechless of such horrible crime.
If the punishment for “mocking” anyone is the expulsion to the wilderness with one skin (bottle) of water and bread, I am afraid of such (in)justice.
You stated that you are “religious technician” can you then tell me, what is wrong with the whole Biblical story (picture), of what we are “told” why Hagar and Ishmael were expelled versus the “textual evidence” of what it actually says? Here I will tell you what I find interesting.
We are told that, as stated above, the reason for their expulsion is Ishmael’s “mocking” of Isaac (Gen. 21:9), and Sarah’s order to Abraham to expel them or cast them out (Gen. 21:10).
Where it really gets interesting is when we continue to read the story and come across the following, directly related to the incident, verses:
Gen. 21:14 – And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder AND THE CHILD, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.
Gen. 21:15 – “And the water was spent in the bottle, and she CAST THE CHILD under one of the shrubs.”
Gen. 21:16 – ” And she went…for she said, Let me not see the death of THE CHILD.”
Gen. 21:17 – “And God heard the voice of THE LAD…”
Gen. 21:18 – “Arise, LIFT UP THE LAD AND HOLD HIM IN THINE HAND…”
Now all this “textual evidence” points to a little different story than what we are told. As anyone, who has actually read the Genesis, can deduct that Ishmael was born 14 years prior to the birth of Isaac, and the above mentioned incident took place after Isaac was WEANED as is stated in Gen. 21:8 (it is customary to wean the children at or by the age of 3), that would make “mocking” Ishmael the 17-year old young man.
Now, you and all readers, consider the Biblical age of Abraham, especially Hagar as she is more directly related to Ishmael in the story, and tell me, DO YOU HANDLE ALMOST GROWN UP YOUTH as is described in the text? I for one, do not believe so, for the text describes a small child, one small enough that old Hagar can carry him on her shoulder (in her arms), the one she can “cast” him under the shrubs, and the one who is not capable of running around looking for water, but is dependent solely on his mother’s help, and the help and mercy of the Almighty Creator.
So, no my dear friend Ken, that story just does not add up to what we are “officially” told by the preachers and others (especially Jews) who would like to put Isaac above Ishmael. Details like that bring the authenticity of the Bible and its stories into question.
As far as Ishmael being an “illegitimate” child, or his mother Hagar as played down as “only” a bondwoman, the book you claim to believe in (I hope) tells us different, for in EVERY INSTANCE where either Ishmael is mentioned or Hagar, they are rightfully titled as “SON” of Abraham or as “WIFE” of Abraham. I would find it very strange, rather ludicrous, that a man, who was called A FRIEND OF GOD, would do such a sin as adultery. So, again, both Ishmael and Hagar, peace be with them are legitimate.
We Muslims, also have the ‘story of Abraham’ in the Holy Qur’an, and while is it very similar in many aspects, it is very different to WHY Hagar was left in the wilderness. In Islam we believe that it was God’s will to do so, much before Isaac was ever born while Ishmael was a very young child (just as the Biblical text describes the young child).
So, Ken, that would be my brief “touching” on the issue / topic of Ishmael’s and Hagar’s expulsion from the house of Abraham. Many, many texts can be written on the issue, and as I do not believe in 100% authenticity of the Bible, I found it very interesting that we were told one thing yet the text itself contained the “evidence” that the Islamic view was more correct than the Judeo-Christian one.
Another point I would like to briefly touch upon is you questioning the “Prime Cause” Whom Muhammad called ALLAH.
Actually here is YOUR POST:
“What is this Prime Cause Muhammad called Allah, a village idiot endlessly obsessed with minor matters of little consequence?
While Prime Cause speaks to all mankind through his works generically, I am no where aware of his speaking in words to any human, & I can see no reason why he would. Abraham, Moses & the Apostles heard voices which were representative & elective; a higher calling, at no time did they hear literal & actual voices that controlled them.
In closing this section, I wish to state I am quite comfortable with man made Gods. It is we the Patriarch’s who bought forth the Most High God of Israel. (Having been called to the office of Patriarch, I can hardly not be comfortable with man-made) In nature & in physics it seems we exist as pieces of flotsam adrift in a void.”
Well, to ANSWER your question I will simply DESCRIBE The Prime Cause, aka. Allah to you, and let you and the readers decide if you can digest it or not;
(Qur’an 2:255)
Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal.
Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him.
Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth.
Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave?
He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will.
His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.
(Qur’an Chapter 112)
Say: He is Allah, the one and only;
Allah, the eternal, absolute;
He sires no offspring,
nor is he anyone’s offspring;
And there is none like him.
You have been introduced to the “prime cause”, as you call it in above verses. Take it or leave it. But then again, you may have your own interpretation of the divine, the life, and everything else, since you are the “appointed patriarch.” 🙂
As you question the name Allah, you may want to pick up Bible, any Bible written in Arabic, for an Arab Christian, and see what is the word they refer when they say God. You cannot help but find the same Arabic word ALLAH!
To the end note, I am actually scared of people who are “comfortable” with “man-made” gods as you say it, since I strongly disbelieve that anything or anyone created can be “God.”
Comfort and belief in man-made divinities makes many people stray from the True Creator and His Truth.
Regarding you not being aware of “God speaking” to anyone in the Bible, all I can do is suggest that you sit down, in a nice quiet room, open your Bible (whichever you believe in, and I assume the Catholic) and read, slowly…
The last thing I will mention is, Ken, your ignorance of the semantics (in general terms it is a study of the meanings).
You are seemingly ignorant of the words Islam and Muslim to start off with. I also believe that your “knowledge” of Islam as well as of the Qur’an is very limited, if that. Hence your such hateful and ignorant statements.
I have come to this blog to invite the good people ignorant ones or not, the haters and others for a dialogue in person, at our place of worship. Or, if not possible, then in this way. You have shared your “love” with me, in a very hateful and offensive way, by calling the last messenger of the Almighty by various filthy names. Have you heard me or seen me call Jesus any such name? There are many claims that could be said (just look up Jewish Encyclopedia under “Jesus or Yeshua”) but as a MUSLIM I will not stoop down to level of an ignorant hater. I as a Muslim I believe in Issa ibn Maryam (Jesus the son of Mary) as he is named in the Qur’an, as the Messiah being described so in the Qur’an.
My conclusion is that you are very ignorant on the subject of Islam. You are trying to say something, and speak about something of which you have no or very limited knowledge. Also, you believe you are divine in some sense (as you said you can be divine or insane), but in my opinion you qualify for the second choice. Patriarch of some sort.
Using your “sophisticated” language, you can only fool the ignorant ones, the ones who know no better, you write so much quoting so many irrelevant people, and bringing up so many issues, absolutely irrelevant to the topic in question, yet without saying anything. Simply empty speech. You also seem to have given yourself the right to re-interpret the Bible, in your own way, by telling us who and what represents what. I have shown your post to a Christian known to me for many years, from before I became Muslim, he had a simple statement about you… “crazy.”
Anyway, I hope you and your family stay well, and if you do happen to stop by in the U.S. of A. you are always welcome in our house of worship. This invitation still stands to all others who are in the area of the Murfreesboro, Nashville, Knoxville, Chattanooga… there are few Muslim places of worship, and quite few Muslims, so talk with us and get to know us, we won’t bite I PROMISE 🙂
Peace to all and stay well!
Abu Ahmed Abdullah
Bury several pigs or pig parts on the property.
In Seville Spain, local people found a way to stop the construction of another mosque in their town. They buried a pig on the site, and made sure this would be known by the local press.
The Islamic rules forbid the erecting of a Mosque on “pig soiled ground.” The Muslims had to cancel the project. This land was sold to them by government officials.
No protests were needed by the local people…and it worked!
Gary can you show me scriptural evidence of that working? Is it Koran? Hadiths? If its true hell Ill kick in to have someone bury a pig at the proposed site for the Victory Mosque. But I’m pretty confident that an imam just has to say a few magic words and problem solved. The problem with trying to use magic against the people who invented the rules, is they can just invent more rules.
Hahahahah…. 🙂
Why don’t you start killing pigs and burying them… and yes, as Eeyore brought forth, can you back your plagiarized idea with strong and authentic evidences from the Islamic scriptures, Gary?!
But nevertheless, this is really amusing… heheh 🙂
Salam!
Wow. Some nonmuslims sure do come up with the darndest things. By all means, gather up a bunch of dead pigs and bury them if it makes you feel better. That’ll teach us. I guess we’ll have to start putting up ‘warning. Pig burial ground” signs up in order to protect ourselves. Or, I don’t know, invent a buried pig divining rod or something. Hilarious. And incidentally I personally have no feelings of ill will against pigs.
Speaking of divining, Eeyore, “Imam” and “Magic words” are a complete oxymoron. We don’t actually do the spells and incantations thing in Islam. If you are looking for that, might I suggest the brilliant The Dark is Rising series by Susan Cooper, or the extremely famous Harry Potter series by Rawlins, or even some of my favorite books from my childhood, The OZ series by L Frank Baum. Great stuff, all of it. But of course those are just stories.
Have a great day.
Salam
Anne M. You missed my point entirely. In essence, I am agreeing with you. Attempting to solve a problem using magic rules of the enemy, that would be you, and magic rules would be things that bothers your gods or invoking your Djinns, cannot work because they are your magic rules. Even if people are correct in their assessment Imams can just do a ritual, and don’t tell me you don’t have them you make meat halal by an incantation and a ritual, so you could just invent a new one to make ground safe for a new command centre, what you call a mosque.
Have you actually read the Koran? There is all kinds of supernatural mumblty jumblty in there. Every verse begins with a deity Mohamed made up he calls, ‘Allah’, probably a derivation of the Meccan moon god, Al Lot.
You’re right, Eeyore. I have missed your point entirely. I am still missing your point entirely. I am missing it because you seem to be operating out of the idea that certain things exist in Islam that don’t. Such as magic spells and potions. It is hard to get a point that is based on something that is actually, uhm, not.
Bismillah, “In the name of God” (Allah)
Allah being the Arabic name for the one and only God
There’s your incantation.
Scary, isn’t it?
Btw it isn’t Koran but Qur’an, and yes, I’ve read it.
Get an education, my friend
Salam
Speaking of pigs, Eeyore, are you familiar with the Freddy the Pig books by Walter Brooks? Delightful. I highly recommend them. They never got the following that the Winnie the Pooh books got, which are also wonderful, but I they should have.
Again, have a great day, or rather, evening
This is Anne M signing off from the command center
Anne:
Is misrepresentation the best you can do? I was extremely clear with what I said and I never said anything about potions. Chanting something to an imaginary supernatural creature to somehow make food clean is indeed an incantation no matter how you want to spin it and the Koran is full of nonsense about ‘Djinn’, some kind of mischievous or evil spirits which are remnants of earlier Arabic folklore.
Islam after all, is a franken-faith where Mohamed stitched together parts of what he heard of other beliefs to suit his agenda at that particular moment in time. It is interesting how there is not one woman mentioned in the Koran by name however except for Mary and that is specifically to say she is not the mother of god.
Kind of funny to read women defending the faith.
By the way, do they let you into the main part of the mosque? Or are you under the coats with your laptop?
Yes, Eeyore, they do let me into the main part of the mosque. Thanks for asking.
Oh you must be the maid then.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Anne, It is fruitless to engage in any kind of ‘conversation’ with the people like Eeyore, simply because as you can see yourself, they NEVER bring forth the arguments and evidences to the dialogues. So, leave them alone, they rot in their hatred… however, our masjeed is going to be a beautiful one.
You see, Anne, Eeyore and other “atheists” believe that something comes into existence without any cause… speak of stupendous ideas. They don’t have anything to stand on anyway. But what I find more interesting is, that he has not said ONE word about Christianity or any other faith believing in the Divine Being we call God or Allah.
Eeyore, just because you don’t see something is it reasonable and logical to automatically reject its existence?
Abu,
Please cite your evidence that Eeyore is an atheist and believes that something comes into existence without any cause. I await your response.
Abu, I agree with you whole heartedly. I actually have no great desire to converse with people like Eeyore, and indeed I only made my initial comment about the pigs because I thought the whole idea was so ridiculous that I couldn’t resist.
Silly me, I didn’t realize that Eeyore is actually the owner of this blog, but now that I have taken the time to read his ‘mission statement’, I will only say that you are absolutely right. He is cancerous with hate.
Eeyore, clearly you have no desire to get along, so any engagement with you is a waste of time. But one thing I will say to you, Eeyore, is that people like you with your bag of tricks (including as always gathering up nothing but the worst of behaviors by Muslims and presenting that as an entire picture) to defame Muslims come a dime a dozen, and the fact that you are articulate does not mean that what you say is true, or that you are not guilty of misrepresentation yourself. I, and I am sure brother Abu as well, have seen this pack of distortions and lies a million times over. The hate sites that decorate the margins of this page are as predictable as night following day. You have probably never attended a khutbah in a masjid one time in your life, or even set foot inside of a masjid, and yet you know everything. Clearly you don’t know the first thing about what my religion teaches me. It is interesting. These people are on a campaign to tell me what to wear, to argue against my beliefs, to smear, to keep me from practicing ,and to prevent me from having my own place of worship. I have never done any of those things, to anyone. And yet I am the Nazi, and the fascist. What hypocrites, and what sad and hate filled lives people like you lead. Finally, what you fail to realize. Eeyore, is that the joke is on you, because the more I listen to people like you, the more I believe in my faith and thank God that I am not taught to be like you.
And now I am off to enjoy the rest of my Sunday afternoon. Have a fabulous day, and Salam
As salamu aleykum sister Anne! Well said 🙂
Here is a good link for you sister, you may find it very interesting:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/
That site has some excellent commentary as well!
Salam
Anne, I will let what you say stand here and history can judge the truth or falsity of what I say and think and present here. Interestingly, on all Islamic channels on youtube for example, or Islamic blogs, all comments are held for moderation. There may be some exceptions to that, but overall that’s the case.
Islam simply is intolerant of any views that are critical of its dogma, and doubly intolerant to any presentation of its history and sharia law that may be true, but present it unfavourably to non-Muslims where they still have sovereignty in their own lands. Yes yes I know, “all the world is a mosque and all religion is for Allah, and all the world must be made subdued and any land that was once ruled by Muslims is always and forever Muslim lands and all that other hateful nonsense that defines Islam then and now, in action and in word, but I mean in the real world where billions of people contentedly govern themselves without Mohamed’s laws.
All this to say, I allow you your say even when you use the rather banal tactic of accusing me of hatred as if somehow, exposing the hatred and violence of Islam, was hatred and violence itself. The fact that you are articulate, instead of the more common foaming threatening nutbag who types as if he was making vanity plates doesn’t make you any less of a brainwashed dogmatic person and a threat to liberal democracy.
I would hope that you would move to Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan or one of the other paradises that Islamic rule always creates. Im certain that you will find sharia suitable to you in one of the fifty odd nations that already enjoy it. Perhaps start with Somalia as they now have a wonderful brand new implementation of it where women are immediately physically hurt if they do not dress appropriately or refuse a forced marriage.
I know you would like it better there.
Thanks for reading Vlad. Comment anytime.
Eeyore
To Anne;
“Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.” – Qur’an 16:125
Vlad, about Islam being intolerant toward other religions as you put it, shows me your utter ignorance of the world’s history, and especially the Biblical outlook upon others, non Judeo-Christians. As a matter of fact, Bible IS THE MOST dangerous book in the world, starting from the X-rated stories such as found in songs of Solomon, through utter MURDER and DESTRUCTION of all other who do not conform Biblical Judeo-Christian Dogma, all the way through the MURDERING concept of salvation in Christianity, that is God killing His own ‘Son’ or ‘Himself’ – there is a problem here…. Yet it is called LOVE in Christianity.
Here are few examples of what I am talking about (and yes I will be using your approach as most of you haters do):
How about we start with killing non-believers in 2 Chronicles 15:13-13?
Then we can continue with the murder of followers of other religions as we are instructed in Exodus 22:19, Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Deuteronomy 7:2-5.
Oh wait; we can kill the WHOLE TOWN if one person worships another God… Deuteronomy 13:13-19!!!
Nah, that’s not enough… here are few instructions on how and why to kill children: Isaiah 14:21, Hosea 9:11-16, Exodus 12:29-30, Leviticus 26:21-22, Isaiah 13:15-18…
Last but not least: “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” – Matthew 10:34 and “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” – Luke 19:27
Now, those my friend are dangerous instructions and very dangerous and very intolerant Christian dogma…History testifies that Christianity has killed MORE people than any other religion in the world. Christians even killed their own, under the motto “kill them all and let God separate them.”
How about the killings of thousands of African children labeled as “witches” by churches in Nigeria. One church name may sound bell; MOUNT ZION LIGHTHOUSE… 🙂
I say, if we are going to judge people and religions PUT THE QUR’AN AND THE BIBLE to the same test, next to each other, and BAN one of the two calling for more unjustifiable violence and the one with less tolerance.
To end note, this issue about the folks in the Murfreesboro trying to stop building of religious object other ‘than their own’ such as is the case of the Mosque, is not the first time. There was an instance of similar-minded people who tried to do the same to the CHRISTIANS, when they attempted to halt the construction of St. Rose of Lima Catholic Church.
Anyway, I have wasted more than my share of time here… as Ron White, one of my favorite comedians said… “YOU CAN’T FIX STUPID.”
Salam
On a ~defining moment~ in the Middle East
The Iranian people danced in the streets on the deposal of the Shah; look at Iran today. The Iraqi’s celebrated the deposal of Saddam, look at Iraq today. The list goes on & on. Now the Tunisian & Egyptian people celebrate the deposal of their presidents.
These were repressive police states whom none of us like very much, but where is the alternate peoples government.
None of these movements have campaigned in election to present alternate political, economic, birth management & social policies. They know what they are against, but do not have coherent policies on what they are for.
The secular protesters are for improved QOL & rights for all, a fair enough aspiration, but one they are unable to deliver given the conditions which prevail in these countries.
The Islamic protesters are for an Islamic state. Once a secular/democratic revolution has been attempted & discredited by near inevitable failure; restoration of the historic Islamic caliphate is the most likely end outcome.
Muslims will no longer accept repression by the man-made authority of presidents; but will continue as they always have to accept repression in the name of Allah. This is not a secular victory.
President Obama & other world leaders have pronounced recent events as a ~defining moment in world history~ I agree recent events are a defining moment in the restoration of the Islamic Caliphate; Middle Eastern people have spoken & there is no going back to the Middle East as it was in 2010.
For our part, the west needs accept only a religion can counter a religion, the secular cannot. The western world needs to respond with its own defining moment in the restoration of Christendom.
Ken Maynard. Auckland. New Zealand.
email…. communichristi@gmail.com Webb… http://www.communichristi.org.nz
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On the SIN of tolerance.
To Vlad & Anne, in response to the 25th January comment by… Author: Abu Ahmed, Comment, To Anne; subject… ~Islam is tolerant, the Biblical God intolerant~ For myself I hold both claims to be true.
I wish to say I am not interested in Islamic platitudes on the subject of tolerance, as we Christians hold Islam’s approach to be dishonest, erroneous & false.
Christianity defines the four Cardinal virtues as Prudence, Temperance, Fortitude & Justice, the three theological virtues as faith, hope & charity. Please note… ~tolerance~ is not on the list of Christian virtues, & neither should it be.
Only the Godless need tolerance; the Godly have no use for it. God’s guidance & correction (intolerance) is necessary for salvation, tolerance is the slippery slope toward damnation. Our God is a God of righteousness; as such he does not tolerates anything that is unrighteous.
Tolerance is the parent of corruption, corruption the child of tolerance. The existence of corruption necessitates Islamic authorities recourse to despotism in order, they claim, to contain corruption. Thus tolerance begets corruption, corruption begets despotism. Muslim’s primary dispute with every Islamic government off record has been corruption & despotism. The western world holds Islamic states impossible & Godless due to corruption & despotism. Islamic governments are routinely overthrown; you guessed it; corruption & despotism. All through this Islam preaches tolerance in the name of Allah the merciful. Christians preach salvation in the name of Christ, Son of the competent; while we reject Islam & disdain the teachings off Allah the incompetent.
In Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood is now preaching tolerance (some of us believe merely a PR job) but even if sincere; they are simultaneously promising an end to corruption in Egypt. The Brotherhood is making the usual Islamic promise, ~Islam will foster the parent which is tolerance, but shoot its children which are corruption & despotism~
Indonesia preaches religious tolerance & the most stalwart efforts of the KPK cannot win its war against corruption. Some Indonesians despair that SBY has abandoned the fight against corruption; perhaps he has finally learned, you cannot foster the parent & shoot its children. All this while the Indonesian Judiciary practices rule of outlawry, corruption & despotism, necessary they claim, in order to ~safeguard~ Indonesian society,.
One recent Muslim commentator to the NZ Herald, said… ~Islam is the most tolerant of religions & it is Islam which teaches tolerance to other religions~ This translates… ~Islam is the most corrupt of all religions, & it is Islam which teaches corruption to other religions~
SORRY WE DON’T WANT TO LEARN. Tolerance is not necessary for the Godly, it only serves the Godless who then reap a harvest of corruption for their sins. To Christians, tolerance is a sin not a virtue.
While Christ is a necessary intercessionist between fallible humans & the Father; the Father himself is hard nosed & uncompromising. His prescription for corruption & despotism; shoot the parent. His zero tolerance for the followers of false God’s, ensures corruption & despotism; while always present in varying forms; are contained within manageable limits.
Understand the independent but interdependent nature of the Biblical Trinity, three divine persons each with their own function; none duplicate the services off the other less people become confused as to just whom has dominion over what.
The articles of governance, of law, of legislation, the authority of judgment, & the articles of war are in the hands of the Father. If both the Father & the Son held authority of government there would be two different governments each advancing different policies, if both held the authority of judgment, there would be two different judgments.
Redemption, reconciliation, & a standing humanities institution is the domain of the Son. The Son seeks the redemption of all mankind ~through him~ as a gift to the Father. If reconciliation was a charge on the Father also, he would not be able to sit in judgment.
There are very real reasons for the division of powers within the Trinity.
To understand Christian intolerance we needs understand not the Son, but the specific Biblical Father he is Son of. His first commandment… THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GOD BUT ME.
The Father vaporized whole nations because they were Godless, sent bears to savage a group of kids who taunted his bald headed old coot of a Prophet, locked Moses out of the Promised Land on account of a small violation.
He drowned the human race in a flood; in his first encounter with humanity he threw Adam out on his ear. It seems people per se are not his favorite things; & he is hardly a God of tolerance. Tolerance means compromise; in his holiness the Father will not allow any sinful thing into his presence; which necessitates the intercession of the Son, as the Father is always uncompromised.
Tolerance of Godlessness is not regarded as a virtue in Christianity. There are no grounds on which we are obliged to tolerate a false faith which disdains God in the Highest to instead enslave & repress humanity to the arbitrary edicts of a deluded psychiatric case.
Christ says love the sinner & hate the sin. So we love the Muslim people & hate the sin against God which is Islam. As such, we will not tolerate Islam & neither should we tolerate a religion; which amongst its many errors, exists to teach corruption to all other religions.
………………………….
Lastly, to Abu Ahmed, all the Biblical passages you quote in your 25th January posting, MEAN WHAT THEY SAY. ~Thou shalt have no other God but me~ Tolerance is not a virtue but a human error (one off Adam’s errors) & a sin against God. Adams one sin begets many other sins. Islam’s sin in following a God ~other than~ the God of the Bible, begets the sin of tolerance of false Gods, begets the sin of corruption, in its turn begets the sin of despotism. Despotism begets people’s insurrections & war against neighbors (jihad) which begets the overthrow of governments, which then begets proclamations of tolerance. For Islam, the same wheel of grave error in God, just goes round & round.
Tolerance (of false faiths like Islam) is the path to eternal damnation. Our God is not intolerant because he is mean minded, but in his greater wisdom seeks to save man from himself; a God of righteousness who will not tolerate the unrighteous. This is the word of the Lord.
These things Christians have been trying to teach Muslim’s for a very long time. But as you yourself say… YOU CAN’T TEACH STUPID.
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According to my inbox, some people recently debated burying a dead pig on the site of this proposed Mosque. I ignored this debate. I agree the citizens of Murfreesboro should resist the incursion of Islamic tolerance off falseness, corruption & despotism into their community. Yet I counter Islam with the word & truth of God, I have no interest on any schemes centered on a pig.
Ken Maynard. email…. communichristi@gmail.com Webb… http://www.communichristi.org.nz
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Our God is not intolerant because he is mean minded, but because he loves humanity. As un-Godliness is the road to human damnation, he will not tolerate it.
This is the graciousness of his gift to us.
Before Christ he lived in the inner sanctum of the temple, & was so holy no flawed human could even enter into his presence. It is only through the intercession of Christ & his sacrifice on our behalf, that it has become possible for humans to approach him.
Some speak of universal right & justice, this is mindless blather. We must first define just who or what we aspire to do right by & justice to. (See ~God, shaping our world~ 6 pages, Christianity tab, http://www.communichristi.org.nz )
If we do right & justice by the sacred trees or earth spirits off the Pagans, we do injustice & wrong to God in the highest. If we do right & justice to the state, we may again be wrong in God; if we do right & justice in accordance with the misdirection’s given the Quran, we do wzrong & injustice to God in the highest.
For Christians right & justice are defined ~relative to~ the God of the Bible. It is Him & Him alone, that we endeavor to do right by & give justice to.
The same applies to the moral order. Taken on there own the last six of the Ten Commandments comprise a universal common morality; a group of civil codes necessary to bring order & seemliness to human affairs. Taken as a whole; all off the Ten Commandments (with priority given to the first four) comprise (Christian) moral theology. Common morality which serves the needs of mammon, & moral theology which serves God in the highest are not one & the same thing; again the whole moral order is defined ~relative to~ Him.
The condition chastity & the condition adultery are defined ~relative to~ Him. They are NOT defined ~relative to~ common morality, NOT defined ~relative to~ a sacred forest, & certainly NOT defined ~relative to~ Islam’s obsessions & petty absolutisms.
Moral theology attests sex is only for conception & the bringing forth of ~new life~ It yet further insists parents are responsible to God for the life they bring forth. This new life is defined ~relative to~ Him; it is NOT defined by the laws of reproductive biology alone.
The seven virtues are CHRISTIAN virtues. They are not virtues if practiced in the service of mammon, in the service of a sacred mountain, in the service of Islam’s misdirection or in the service of the state. (A virtuous man may be & often is a more agreeable neighbor, but humanity will not be saved by the practice of virtue; he can only be saved in the blood of the Lamb of God) Thus the seven virtues, are defined ~RELATIVE TO~ HIM, & relative to no other standard.
Muslims often speak of respect for all religions. Islamic propaganda in NZ & AU is rich in mindless platitudes… ~all religions are entitled to the same respect & rights for all are children of the same Adam~ Absolute rubbish! If Adam was worthy of such respect, why did God toss him out on his ear?
I respect consensual sex between adults, provided only the relationship is creditworthy in God. I do not tender the same respect to rapists or rapist-murderers. Yet this crime against the individual, no matter how sordid, painful or ugly; is but a small matter within the greater scheme of things. Those who follow false Gods will deliver all off humanity to eternal damnation for all of time. This crime against humanity as a whole; generations past present & yet to be born: is a matter of great & irreversible consequence. On what moral grounds does Islam attest the agencies of eternal damnation should be respected equal to the agencies of salvation? For Christians, respect & disrespect are defined ~relative to~ Him. There can be no other standard.
~Thou shalt have no other God but me~ Everything defined ~RELATIVE TO HIM~ is the graciousness of his gift to us, & in this gift is our salvation.
Ken Maynard. Webb… http://www.communichristi.org.nz
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Ken, you are total nutcase. I strongly suggest you visit a psychologist there in Auckland NZ. 🙂
Salam
Seriously, Ken, go get some help.
Salam
Firstly to Abu Ahmed
We disagree, we have disagreed for 1,500 years since the advent of Islam, we disagree now, & we will continue to disagree until the end of time. As our differences are irreconcilable I do not debate toward a reconciliation we cannot have, rather I simply state the Christian case.
Man is the only species (known to us) who is endowed with capacity for self determination, & further gifted with a life supportive biosphere virtually as his private fiefdom. Man is somewhat spoiled & over indulged already, no WE DO NOT get free salvation with that, we have to work for it in joint venture partnership with God in the Highest.
Seeking salvation in Christ is not easy, yet as he is the only salvation we can have AT ALL, that simplifies our options. We keep working on it, despite the difficulties encountered along the road. This salvation is dependent on serving Christ ~SON OF GOD~ specifically; Islam’s watered down commitment to merely a Prophet is inadequate & insufficient to mans ultimate salvation.
~You cannot serve two masters, less you deceive the one & betray the other~ Muslim’s cannot serve both Muhammad & Christ, without committing a total betrayal of Christ.
Christians are charged ~love the sinner, hate the sin~ & ~I am my brothers keeper~ It is in our capacity off ~our brothers keeper~ that we will never accept Islam as anything other than a false faith. This is a position we will maintain, until the second coming of Christ in the last days.
Christ (& Christ ALONE) be with you.
Once Christ is with you, he will call the other two persons of Trinity to be with you as also. Then you will have THE COMPLETE SALVATION.
Close
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Closing note to the Murfreesboro community.
On the decline of world democracy.
Natural democracy in the form of citizens advisory councils to the powerful have existed in various forms in every society of record. These were advisory councils, not sovereign democracy. The Greeks are accredited with inventing due process democracy, & did a good job of the intellectual templates; but we needs note this was a limited franchise, of limited appeal & of limited duration.
Western democracy was fathered by the Protestant Reformation, which transferred the office of Bishop to the congregation. (A middle class mutual society)
Protestant democracy is ~Government off a Christian people, by a Christian people for a purpose in the Biblical God~
It immediately found itself in a contest for control with secular democracy; but the church had been in a contest for control with the forces of mammon in the pre Reformation regimes. The agents of God had been in the same conflict at the time of Abraham & Moses; this conflict had commenced with the sin of Adam. There was nothing new in this ancient battle other than a change in terms; it was now about whose democracy was it.
Protestant democracy managed to maintain control (more or less) until the 1950’s after which secular democracy gained control.
Secular democracy being ~Government off the people, by the people, for the people~
By 1990 this Christian had a distinct feeling of secular democracy being a sinking ship. Closer examination proved this was so, but the good news was secular democracy is not that bad either.
It would sink slowly & progressively over a period of decades. (Bad news the ship is sinking; good news is it is going to take a while)
No need for immediate panic; but need for a considered evaluation of where the western world needed to go next, & start planning for an orderly & relatively casualty free transition of power
All of which has been changed by the Middle East’s defining moment in history.
We now have emerging Islamic democracies, best defined as ~Government off a fantasy, by a fantasy, for a fantasy~
World democracy is no longer slowly sinking but sinking more rapidly. Further, Islam is unstable & unpredictable; it can change abruptly & cataclysmically without prior notice. Any Islamic democracy can be tossed out at a moment’s notice, as have the existing regimes in the Middle East. This greatly reduces the prospect of a controlled & orderly transition off power away from democracy on any basis which is casualty free.
While I have always expected the fall of secular democracy, I also planned on long lead times for a controlled adjustment. ~At a moment’s notice, Islam can generate such a mass of feeling, it breaks the brittle bonds the reformer has so painstakingly established~ Lord Cromer, Viceroy of Egypt, 1890. The recent populist hysteria that changed the Middle East was par for the course in Islam. Every change of Islamic government in history has been toppled by spontaneous mass action. That leaves democracy worldwide dependent on an Islam who may at any moment choose to depose it on less than thirty days notice.
So much for ~government off a fantasy, by a fantasy, for a fantasy~
The western world needs to respond with its own defining moment in the restoration of Christendom.
………………………………….
Lastly… this is the last of my postings to the Murfreesboro site. It has been both an informative & disturbing debate to observe. Most disturbing has been the inadequacy of the western responses. While we have never been perfect as such is not possible for man; rarely in history has the Christian west been so confused, so dissolute & so far from God. I thank Vlad for his hospitality, & if anyone wishes to follow up with me, may I refer you to the Webb-site below.
Ken Maynard. Auckland. New Zealand.
email…. communichristi@gmail.com Webb… http://www.communichristi.org.nz
Use a Firefox or Safari Webb-browser for full use of this site.