There has been quite a few comments on this issue on Vlad. None of them agreeing with me whatsoever from any side. Just FWIW.
The National post just published this article as a sort of follow up on the previous one and I wish to take issue with much of what is said in it. Many of the comments on the previous post actually made some important points and if true, do change the equation somewhat. For example, if indeed the kosher method really does kill the animal with the same or less pain than the usual Western industrial methods, then it should be allowed based on that standard. But I cannot let rabbis say that this means ‘no Jews allowed’, as they do in this article, in Holland. It just means if they insist on eating only Kosher meat they have to be vegetarian or get the meat from Belgium. Life is about choices. Democracy makes laws for the public good now and again and while I do not agree with many of them, if they do not apply to all and exceptions can be made for the most irrational reasons, then there is no point in making them at all.
A few points:
The European Jewish Congress (EJC) announced it was considering taking legal action to block the ban, which it said violated the freedom of religion enshrined in the European Convention of Human Rights.
OK I have not read the “European convention of Human Rights” but surely if it speaks of freedom of religion, that can’t give religious people the right to run roughshod over secular law, only freedom from state persecution so long as they do obey the laws. Freedom of religion was always meant to mean you can pray in whatever manner to whichever god. Surely to Aphrodite it wasn’t meant to mean you can earn yourself a free pass from democratic law because you declare your religion obliges you to certain actions. If it does, then I belong to the sacred church of holy Texas Colt and I demand the right to carry an operational .45 cal sidearm at all times. You know, like the Sikh’s carry a knife. To defend their religion. Well I want my Colt to defend mine. Can’t help it if now and again a criminal gets in the way and I need to use it for non religious purposes.
CER President Rabbi Pinchas Goldschmidt vowed to lobby against the bill, saying: “We will not rest until this discriminatory, intolerant and hateful bill is thrown out. We call upon the members of the Dutch Senate to use their constitutional powers to restore the dignity of their country.”
How is it “discriminatory, intolerant and hateful”? It just means Jews and Muslims have to 1. Eat non halal/Kosher meat when in holland or 2. Order out or 3. not eat meat. In no way does it say no Muslims or Jews allowed. This is about a behavior. There should also be laws saying no rapists allowed. Would we accept an argument from a religious group that advocated rape of non-members (not that there is such a group of course) that such a law was hateful and intolerant of them? What about smokers? I notice even liberal Holland has banned cigarettes from bars and restaurants? Is that hateful and intolerant? Why do people insist on using the word ‘discriminate’ like its a bad thing?
“We have passed the stage of arguing the nuances of intention of anti-Semitism,” he said. “The practical effects of this bill mean that Jews are no longer welcome in the Netherlands. This has not happened for 70 years.”
No. It does not mean that. It means Jews are as welcome as anyone else they just can’t slaughter animals in a way that contradicts Dutch animal welfare laws. It is not antisemitic whatsoever. Antisemitism is when you discriminate against Jewish people for no reason other than the label of being Jewish, whether they are religious or no, or have any actual behavioral trait with which a person may take issue. This is what differentiates between antisemitism and being anti-Islam. People who are Muslim and choose to abandon all that crap no longer are on the radar of people who do not like Islam. Jews are hated for being jews, by those that do, for no actual reason of belief, behavior or any other rational attribute. This is a critical distinction and why in fact, everyone needs to learn to discriminate. Discrimination is the whole purpose of reason.
Eeyore for Vlad.
Hi Eeyore, I was one of those people that disagreed with you, however I agree with you that they used the term Antisemitism way too fast for no reason (to some degree I do understand that this may feel like marginalization).
Now here you say the following: “It just means Jews and Muslims have to 1. Eat non halal/Kosher meat when in holland or 2. Order out or 3. not eat meat” and ” It just means if they insist on eating only Kosher meat they have to be vegetarian or get the meat from Belgium.”
The problem is: they will also ban import. The Dutch government may not agree with the choice of slaughtering, but simply banning the import is ridiculous. By the way, the whole non-smoking ban is overturned (at least for small bars). That’s actually one of the first things the new government did, lol!
Tundra Tabloids is posting a very good counter argument to mine.
http://wp.me/p1mneq-5K8
NOTE: Without the rise of the threat of Islam and Islamization, Kosher ritual slaughter would only be a PETA concern. We would not be addressing the issue of ritual slaughter, no one would really care. From Tundra Tabloids. This is not a true statement. In many ways people in Western countries love animals. They real care for them especially in the UK with dogs, cats, horses etc. The problem from the animal rights point of view is the confused approach. Animal rights wants an intellectually sound basis which treats all animals well and not some animals well and others not. This concern about kosher and halal is something that animal rights activist appreciate. It will give people a chance to try to make a more intrinsically intellectual fact based case which is universal in its application. Since many people are intelligent in the counter jihad they may even give up meat eating in order to avoid funding the jihad as so little of the halal meat is labelled as such. It is no good composing brilliant essays on Jihad etc and then going out and without knowing it buying halal meat and thus funding the Jihad.
The Netherlands had no problem with Kosher meat for centuries. This ban is due to the concern of Islam. Even though Muslims will agree to conform to the law(they will do anything to stay in the Netherlands and make it an Islamic country, then all this halal ban can be reversed).
The message of this law is that everyone resident in the Netherlands has to conform to its customs and traditions.
I agree Eeyore, this has nothing to do with antisemitism but everything with treatment of animals we depend on. The level of society can be judged by the way it treats its animals someone once sad. It’s remarkable that some people actually believe that cutting throats of fully conscious animals will bring them closer to God. Religion of any kind must not be allowed to stand above state laws. As none of us lives in a vacuum there are limits to any freedom we enjoy and certainly there should be limits to what we can do particularly under religious freedoms. We all know how totally grotesque and ignorant some religious customs are.
Not everything is said about this. There is only one kosher slaughterhouse for the whole of the Netherlands. And there are something like 50.000 jews in the Netherlands, nobody knows for certain. A year only a thousand animals are being slaughtered kosher, all kind of animals accept pigs. Those animals are never kosher, they where even left out of the Arc of Noah, left to drown during the great flood, but unfortunately pigs can fly! If we take approximately three cows a day, that would make 3000 kilos of meat I guess, for 50.000 persons. That makes 60 grammes of meat for every kosher loving consumer. According to the health department 50 grammes is sufficient. But I know of the wonderful meal at the shores of the lake of Galillea, one bread and three fishes where enough to feed thousands and thousands. And if Jesus does not come around to feed the jews again, they can become vegetarians.
That would be more preferable for the animals!
@vanhetgoor
Approximately 1,2 million animals are slaughtered each day. Why not ask every Dutch person to become vegetarian?
My husband is Jewish and he is against cruelty to animals. Preriod !
We live in 2012 soon and need to stop cruelty to animals. You can make your ritual without making them suffering. Stop it ! On top the Jewish people put taxes on our products that is hidden and make money on our back. Halal wants to do the same. what is not right to the non-religious people. Sooooo who is the fool here <> ! And of course Catholics can not eat Kosher and Halal on top ! it is agaisnt my religion and Kasher is impose on us, that is not fair at all. Anayway, people can have their own kasher food or halal woithout taking advantage on others.
Guylaine:
Where is your proof of a hidden kosher tax please? This is the first I have heard of it and I am dubious. Food that is kosher is typically marked as such and paid for by the consumer, which would be Jewish people and perhaps those on the Atkins diet as Kosher sausages cannot be padded with bread crumbs for example. So please, provide evidence that we are secretly taxed for kosher food.
Thank you in advance.
We had a TV reportage the name of the TV show was J.E.
First all product has to be mark (MK or K ) saying that all the product are Kasher. + Those people are supppose to pay around 35,000 dollars for to have a permit that is Kasher. Like any product on the market that have the LOGO kasher food, the people have Rabbi to check the industries if they are clean and proper manage the way it is to be for Kasher food. Even if you are NOT jewish. Then the price for license kasher food is reapply on the products, because the owner have to make is money back. It was a great TV reportage, and I have to tell you that is not right to me. We are paying for Kasher certificate and Kasher food is not supppose to be impose in Grocery store. SO now Halal wants to do the same, we need to be clear that we dont want to pay for other religion. That was also told on the governement Studies with Bouchard-Taylor Commission …
STOP animals cruelty : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x70r2j_undercover-footage-shows-rabbits-sc_shortfilms
AN OTHER ONE ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4DJh-L7Ys